Katie Snow: Blending Hospitality and Tech for Superior Customer Success

When Katie Snow traded the frenetic pace of restaurant management for the tech world's promise of balance, she brought with her a unique perspective on customer service that's reshaping how we view support in business.  Tune in as we chat with this Director of Customer Success and Support to unravel her journey, proving that the skills honed in the most demanding of service industries are not only transferable but invaluable. Katie's candid sharing of her career evolution offers a beacon of hope for those seeking renewal in their professional paths.

In a world where the right app can transform entire industries, she peels back the curtain to reveal the intricacies of customer experience beyond the screen. We explore the art of customer retention, dissect the methods of de-escalating issues with the written word versus the immediacy of face-to-face encounters, and celebrate the breathing room that tech jobs offer. The conversation turns to the craft of onboarding customers in tech, where Katie has mastered the dance, ensuring each client's success is as meticulously planned as a five-star dining experience.

This episode wouldn't be complete without a heartfelt discussion on nurturing trust within teams through the lens of constructive feedback. We discuss the trials in providing tough feedback, highlighting the delicate balance between preserving a team member's dignity and steering them toward growth. We muse over the creation of safe spaces that encourage straightforward, empathetic dialogue, reflecting on how such environments can be a crucible for not only professional but also personal transformation. Tune in for an episode that's as much about leading with grace as it is about embracing change.

We are looking for Sponsors for our show! 

We have a variety of sponsorship packages to suit every business and budget. 

If you have a business that you would like to promote to thousands of people, send us an email at podcastwinning@gmail.com or message us through Facebook or Instagram.

A Huge Thank You to our sponsor,  Just for You Day Spa and Wellness. Just For You is Canada’s Premier Day Spa with 5 locations in Alberta and Saskatchewan. The award winning luxury spa features Lia Reese Cosmetics and Iconic Betty Jewelry that you can also purchase online. Visit www.justforyoudayspa.com to book your service or to purchase a gift card! 

Chapters

• 0:40 Transitioning From Restaurant Management to Tech
• 10:37 Customer Service and Onboarding in Tech
• 23:12 Building Trust Through Constructive Feedback
• 31:55 Importance of Delivering Constructive Feedback

Transcript

Shauna Foster: 0:41

Winning will help you learn the hard lessons the easy way, with guidance from celebrated entrepreneurs and business leaders. It's fun, it's informative, it's Winning.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 0:52

Hello, welcome to Winning. I'm your host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and today's guest is Katie Snow. Hi Katie, Hi Mackenzie. How are you today? Really good, how are you? I'm really good. Thank you so much for being on. Katie is the Director of Customer Success and Support at Wisk. AI. It's an inventory management system for restaurants. She began her career in tech at Seven Shifts, where she spent nearly five years helping to build and scale high performance teams. She's also received multiple awards for leadership and mentoring, which we're going to talk a lot about today. So, Katie, thanks for being here. I'm excited that you're here. Katie and I have worked together and I feel like we just clicked, like the moment we met. So I'm so happy to have you on and hear some of your experiences. But do you want to start with just giving the audience a little bit of an idea of who you are?

Katie Snow: 1:45

Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for having me, Mackenzie. On a personal front, I'm Katie. I'm a mom of two, wife to Ryan. I live in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, right now, born and raised in New Brunswick, but Saskatchewan's home for my family. Now, On a more professional front, like Mackenzie said, I'm the Director of Customer Success and Support at Wisk. AI.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 2:27

That's a lot. I know because I lived in that world for a few years in tech and in the customer service area, and I think people don't realize all that goes into tech. I mean new it's not really that new, but it's a newer area. But there's so many things in the tech world that happen behind the scenes because for most of us, you download an app or you buy a system that you're going to use for your business, whatever it is, you oftentimes don't ever even really know much about the company. You don't know anyone that is there, right, like you're just kind of sign up and you go for it, right?

Katie Snow: 3:01

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly actually what happened with me at Seven Shifts where I used the app for years and I didn't even it didn't even occur to me that there'd be a business behind it until the opportunity was presented to me. So you're right, yeah, we don't even think about the business behind the app.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 3:18

Yeah, no, you don't, and you don't realize all of the things that go into that. And really, in tech, your primary goal is, when someone signs up, to keep them right. That's what you want to do is to keep them there, because it's really easy to be like, oh, I don't use this, unsubscribe or whatever it is right. And it's the keeping them there and then the making them happy and delighted and everything. And that's really where your strengths are.

Katie Snow: 3:45

Exactly. Yeah, you don't think about it when you cancel your Spotify subscription or your Netflix subscription, that there's someone behind the scenes going no, we worked so hard for this. But yeah, that's the world that I live in.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 3:58

into the tech world. You kind of mentioned that you use Seven Shifts first. But how did you get where you are?

Katie Snow: 4:06

Yeah, that is a bit of an interesting story. I would say it was divine timing. Honestly, I've been working as a restaurant manager for several years and it was just wearing on me. Honestly, Mackenzie like I, or anyone who's worked in restaurants, knows that first of all, once you're bit by that restaurant buck, it's really hard to make an exit. But also the life is just, it's hard. You're not always rewarded really generously on a financial front. For one, it's not lucrative in that way.

Katie Snow: 4:37

I was working really long hours. At this point I had two kids and I'm trying to build my life with my family and my kids and my husband around this schedule. That was just really hard to manage. Really long days, really late nights, unpredictability, like if I was working at the restaurant and one of my the school, called and my you know, my son was sick. I'm like well, like I had to find a way to go get him. But how, if I'm the only one at the restaurant, like you couldn't just leave?

Katie Snow: 4:56

And I found that it was, even though the family that I worked for they were incredibly supportive. Honestly, I think they afforded me more flexibility and grace than most restaurant operators would, but it was just so hard and I was struggling, struggling financially, personally. Everything was really hard, and so I was looking for an exit and it seemed like every door that I was approaching was closing. So a friend of mine who had a contact that worked at seven shifts and knew that I was just looking for something, I was just looking for an out, Um. So, hey, I have a friend that works at this company. It's a tech company, it's called Seven Shifts. I don't really know what it does, but this seems like a role that could be a fit for you. I'm like Seven Shifts. And that was that moment where I'm like oh, there's a business behind this app that I interact with every day, every day.

Katie Snow: 5:47

And it seems, seems crazy, but, um, I ended up. It was just sort of like the perfect combination of events that ended up landing me this role at seven shifts. Um, so I started there as a customer support rep. I was like slinging phone calls and live chats. I was on the front lines, um, and all of a sudden, things just really started to fall into place for me. Really, I was being recognized for my strengths. I was being recognized for my ability to solve problems and the way that I could handle these customer escalations and things like that, and it was like, oh my gosh, this is what I've been training for. All of these doors have been closed on me because I was meant to be here. This was the role that was meant for me.

Katie Snow: 6:26

So I ended up being fortunate enough to be offered several promotions from the time I joined, as a CSR, through like between customer success and onboarding and leading a technical team. And I'm just so, so thankful for the leaders at Seven Shifts that saw something in me. They saw a fire and they saw translatable skills. And because of like we're going to talk about the feedback that they offered and because they were generous with that, they helped just they helped me to see my value again and regain some level of confidence and I realized, okay, all of these things I've been dealing with in the restaurant space are really translatable to to tech and to customer growth and experience. So all that to say, that's how I landed where I am today. Just really great leaders along the way and sort of divine timing, with Seven Shifts, I would say.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 7:13

Yeah, it's really cool that when you look back at it. Well, two things I have to say. First of all, the restaurant business. There's no other customer service teacher that's better than the restaurant industry, because you literally face every type of of customer service interaction, issue, problem, delight, whatever it is that you could face in the restaurant business. Right, I feel like that's the best teacher you could ever have?

Katie Snow: 7:42

Yes, and because people are there in like, like in retail, retail you go in and you want to buy something, you want to have a good experience. I mean, you know this from running your store. Like, people want to have a good shopping experience, but they're not paying for the shopping experience, they're paying for the item, whereas at a restaurant you go out for the experience, right like you're, you want to celebrate something, or you you had a long day and you're going out because you don't want to cook or whatever it is, but like, the experience is a huge part of it. So as soon as that experience starts to be derailed, even if it's not your fault as the server maybe the kitchen's backed up or maybe you're just out of something like that wasn't my fault, but I'm the one that has to look the customer dead in the eye and try to make things right with them. So that, like real time. Real time experience definitely helped to shape me. It was hard. I wouldn't love to do it again, but I it was worth it.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 8:34

Yeah, and the thing too is people are really passionate about their food and their experience, so if they love it or hate it, you're going to hear about it. Right, like there's, you know it's coming out. And if there's a problem, you know. You talked about problem solving skills and how you're recognized for that, because you had all of that experience and that's likely when you said all these other doors were closing and it was probably very frustrating, deflating thinking I need to move on, but I can't. And just at that time, here comes this role.

Katie Snow: 9:08

Right, yes, yeah, and I think people really underestimate it. I mean, restaurant professionals are not. It's not a highly regarded position, right, it's so often it's something that you just do while you're in school or university or as a young adult, when you're figuring things out, and that's what I wanted it to be for me. But I was having a hard time proving my value to anyone because that was really the only experience I had and what I wanted to say is like if you only knew you know, like if you only knew that I had, like, a single mom with two kids through university and working these hours, and if you only knew the level of like resilience that I've developed or how good I can be in these situations. Like if I could somehow show you that I know you'd see my value. But it was. It was really hard.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 9:51

Yeah, so how did things change? Let's talk about customer service for a minute. How did things change when you were actually face to face with your customers in the restaurant business? Then going to tech, where they're not actually I mean they might be on a phone call but they're likely more to be on an email or a chat message or something how did that kind of shift, like how you were dealt with them?

Katie Snow: 10:19

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, until this moment, until you, you almost just connected some dots for me because my early days of Seven Shifts I joined, there was only a few of us on the support team and then I was reporting into, at the time, the director of support. It was phenomenal. Anyway, the escalations would come in, really angry customers frustrated with technical issues or who knows, like anything under the sun that they're frustrated with. They'd come into us and I was like eager to talk to them because it felt so easy.

Katie Snow: 10:51

And there were others on the team that was like I don't want to, I don't have to email back and forth with this person because, like they're upset or there's no way. I'm calling this person and I can remember being like put me in, coach, like this is yeah, it felt so easy, um, to not have to be there the moment. Like if someone sends you a frustrating email, you've got time, you can write it and rewrite it and you can think about it, whereas on the spot you go to check on a table and they're like explosive. You have to react quickly. You better know how to move quick. So I would say, really I just felt like it was a breath of fresh air to be able to sit behind a computer or behind a phone.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 11:38

No-transcript yeah, that's really cool and I think too, like you say, it does give you time, because if someone is upset at not you necessarily in the restaurant, but they're taking it on you because you're the person in front of them versus an email that you can literally sit back and be like, okay, let me get in this person's head, like what are they actually upset about? Or what? How did this, how can I empathize with them? Right? Um it, it does give you that ability to to kind of craft more of a response. Right, then, just be off of the top of your head. I do. I'm a strong believer that customer service is customer service, right, but there's definitely different scenarios, like if you can handle a bad situation in the restaurant, you can handle it in tech, you can handle it on my clothing store, right.

Katie Snow: 12:33

Yeah.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 12:33

Skills, but it's definitely different, different ways of doing it, because it's different, similar situations, but really a different environment. Yeah, adaptable. Right, you have to be adaptable to that new. Yeah, it's a very translatable, very translatable skill.

Katie Snow: 12:55

That's why they say even like um. I don't know if this still stands today, but I can recall a time not too long ago when people said if someone has Mcdonald's experience on their resume, like you know, they've been through the thick of it, like it well, it equips them well for their life of employment. And I think you could say the same about restaurant experience. Like someone that's and I think that's part of the reason that at Seven Shifts and also at Wisk. AI, we have a preference for hiring people who have worked in the restaurant industry and it works out really well because, like nine times out of 10, they're just incredibly hard workers, because it's like it feels like this luxury to work in tech after working in the restaurant industry.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 13:33

Yeah, and you're not working until two in the morning or every Saturday I get to take a weekend. Yeah, that's the thing. But that also goes back to where you said at the beginning you were looking for really more time with your family and the ability to have some flexibility, and that is. One great thing about tech is that you do that right, you're not working on a saturday night usually. Um, sometimes there's things that happen, I guess, but in the restaurant business you definitely were. So I think that career change and I know you so I know how awesome you are at customer service and support but that career change just seemed to fit you so well, like I think you were made for that tech space really.

Katie Snow: 14:21

Thank you, I like to think so. It does feel like a really good fit really good fit.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 14:31

Yeah for sure. Let's talk a little bit. We mentioned it, we weren't even going to talk about this. But I want to talk a little bit about onboarding because I think, like you said and I said to him, like people don't know what happens behind the scenes. So do you want to just give a little bit, and I think we'll talk to you about how that can translate to other businesses, but don't just give kind of a little bit. What is onboarding and what do you mean when you say you're onboarding customers?

Katie Snow: 15:22

Sure, yeah. So onboarding maybe. I'll just speak to Wisk in particular and what onboarding looks like for us. So Wisk is an inventory management solution for bar and restaurants and, as you can imagine, inventory is a really heavy. It's a heavy lift. It's really important, it really impacts your bottom line, helps you to understand where your money's going, what kind of stock you've got on hand, where your needs are and also just whether or not you're reaching your goals and staying within your margins.

Katie Snow: 15:55

But all that to say, implementing a new inventory management system is not easy and basically what we do at Wisk when a new customer comes to us and they go through the sales process and they decide, yep, I want to try Wisk as a solution, then what they're going to do is they're going to be passed on to a customer success manager and they're going to do their onboarding. So they're going to do a kickoff call and they're going to say why are you here? What is it you're struggling with? Do you need to see a variance reporter? What is it that you need to see in order to help you get a better handle on your business operations, kind of understand their goals, who the stakeholders are, and then from there we're going to help them to set a timeline and a plan for implementation. So when do you actually want to get to this point? What's your capacity like right now? If I'm talking to a restaurant and it's like if it's the middle of July and their patio is open and they've got a summer feature menu and they're a hotspot in the summer, that's probably when they're working the hardest all year. It's probably not the best time to implement an inventory management solution where you have to go and you have to input every item that exists in your restaurant. But we're going to say what's your capacity like? Who do you have on your team? Who can be responsible for these things that we need? And then from there we're going to go about basically, they take the Wisk app on their phone, they go into their beer cage in the back, they're going to start with all their drinks and they're just going to scan all those barcodes.

Katie Snow: 17:09

They're going to start building their inventory list from there. So what we're doing from an onboarding point is giving them homework. We're saying, okay, go do this and then come back to us and we're going to walk you through what's next, instead of giving them this long laundry list of things they have to do before they see value. We're just really walking arms with them and saying we want to help you see value. We want you to get up and running and see the value. So you stay with us. So we're going to walk you through how to do it. So that's really what onboarding is. It's like here's your homework, go scan your bottles, Let me know. When you're done we'll meet again and then we're giving them the next thing okay, send us your recipes so we can connect things from your point of sale to the ingredients that we know you have in house and we can start tracking the cost of your plates and what you're using.

Katie Snow: 17:47

So I think that pretty much covers it. Basically, we're working with them until they've got their wheels off the ground, they have an understanding of how to use the tool, train their team on how to use the tool and once they see that first value, then we're saying, okay, come back and let me know if you're running into any struggles, but I think your team is ready to continue to manage this on your own. I'll check in with you in maybe three months or whatever that cadence looks like with that particular customer.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 18:13

Yeah, I think I'm a huge believer on systems and implementing systems to help you, and especially now with technology, to think that an app or a computer system or whatever it is can do all this for you. Like imagine before they were literally just figuring this out with a pen and paper, or maybe like their margins, maybe not even really figuring it out, right, yeah, or like a huge issue is guessing.

Katie Snow: 18:39

Yeah, a huge issue is like sometimes they feel like those liquor bottles have legs. They're like there's no way we went through 24 bottles of this liquor, like in the point of sale it only says that we use this much, you know. So we're helping to see where that variance is, where you know, are we overpouring? Are we using an expensive vodka in a cocktail that we should be using the well, vodka? Like helping them to see those trends. And that's a real experience that actually happened this week where the customer was like this doesn't make sense. Like I did inventory and then we have our point of sale telling us we use this much vodka. What's going on? And it was like, well, their bartender was knowingly or unknowingly, who knows, but they were substituting the wrong vodka. That costs the restaurant a lot of money because that cocktail is priced based on what the cost of the ingredients is right, so that's just crushing their margins. Yeah.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 19:27

Okay. So I think there's two lessons here. The first lesson is that any system that you're having, or that if you're looking for a system, check with them if they have an onboarding program, because it's going to make you a lot more successful with the, with the system, right. But also now you can explain to that person no, this is what's happening, right. And second of all, um, really, how important it is to know your numbers and know your financials, because I think for a lot of people, you kind of just get rolling in your business and you're like, yep, this is the price, everything is good, and you don't actually ever monitor that. And there are ways to to monitor it. Like, that's such a cool thing. I'm not in the restaurant business, but I think if you are and you're listening, you better give Katie not Katie specifically, but give her a checkout. Yeah, exactly, but it's true. And the whole onboarding, it's really to set the customer up for success, isn't it?

Katie Snow: 20:34

It is. We want to find those quick wins for you so you can see what kind of impact it's going to have in your business, or maybe that it's not going to work in your business, because the reality is sometimes that's how it works too. Is you think it's going to be the perfect fit and you start implementing and say, oh okay, like our point of sale is set up this way, this is our current process and we're not willing to change this. And we can help you figure that out sooner. So you don't pay for the software for 18 months, thinking why am I not getting value? But let's work together. We're on the same team the onboarding manager and the customer are on the same team.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 21:06

Yeah, that's great, and I think, too, this is translatable to lots of different businesses. When you're just talking about customer onboarding, but, like I say, it's working with your customers, making sure that everything's going really smoothly in their life or whatever. It is right. Even me in my clothing store maybe that quote unquote onboarding was helping someone find you know what are you looking for oh, dress for a wedding and helping find something bringing them alternatives. I mean, they're not necessarily onboarding into a system, but it's onboarding them into your business, which I think translate kind of across a lot of different environments for sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, feedback. I really am excited to talk to you about feedback. I will just put this out there Feedback was never one of my strong suits as an entrepreneur.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 22:00

I always gave feedback, positive feedback. I really grew that because it's really easy to tell somebody you did a fantastic job, the way you handled that situation was amazing, whatever, and we're going to talk about this a little bit. But giving negative feedback was never one of my strong suits. So I'm really excited to talk to you about this and maybe gain some skills myself on feedback. But let's just start first of all, why is delivering feedback so important and essential? Really, not just important, but essential.

Katie Snow: 22:37

Yeah, um. So I think feedback is important for everyone. I think it's a foundation of trust for one. If you're giving and receiving feedback with someone, typically you're going to feel really comfortable, knowing, like, where you stand with them, whether that's positive, specific praise or constructive feedback. Um, but particularly as a leader, I think one of your key objectives is to develop people. A rising tide raises all boats, so you want to be continuously elevating those around you. So, as a leader especially, you have this responsibility to those around you and most people, I think we can assume desire to do good and to reach some mark of success.

Katie Snow: 23:13

Generally speaking and we know, trust is the foundation of these strong relationships, and in order to build trust, you have to show that you care enough about the other person to put their best interest over your own momentary discomfort. So if we're failing to deliver feedback, it's going to cost that other person. It could cost them anything. It could cost them their job, their relationship, maybe a promotion or a milestone. It could cost them a long list of things, but it's almost always going to cost them more than the slight discomfort that it's going to cost you. So I think for that reason, giving constructive feedback specifically, is just really important in order to develop that trust and respect for you as a leader. And I think we all have shortcomings, right like we all fall short. But if someone, specifically a leader, is noticing this shortcoming or something you're doing that's negatively impacting your growth or your relationships and they're not willing to tell you about it, then you can be sure they care more about themselves than they care about you.

Katie Snow: 24:14

They care more about what you liked than helping you to grow. So, um, ultimately, yeah, ultimately, trust builds trust. We know that the foundation of a strong team is trust, um, both at their leader and around them. So, I think, if you have really strong trust, if you have, if you have found a foundation of trust and respect from your team, then it results in improved buy-in, improved collaboration and better results all around.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 24:50

And this is one of the things we're just working on right now is that it doesn't matter who's on your team, how smart they are, their educational background, experiences, whatever. If that team doesn't have that trust with each other and with you as the leader, there's just going to be issues. So I love that you talked about that, because I think that is the best way to get your team going in the direction you want them to go right. And individuals, of course, which build your team. But I agree that trust if it's not there, you're just going to have problems from the get-go 100%.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 25:33

Yeah, delivering feedback. What's the best way to do it? I don't know if it's you're the expert here, so you tell us. But I know that some people are like, oh, you should do it in a group, you should do it one-on-one, you should have um, you know, every, every so often, you need to have a meeting for feedback, like what really really is. I mean, I don't know if there's one way, but what is the best way to deliver feedback?

Katie Snow: 26:02

So good question. I don't think that there is one way set in stone. I think it's your responsibility as a leader especially, to know your people and know what their preferences are, and also just to be human, like we don't have to make it such a big thing, that it's like I'm going into this feedback conversation and I have to execute in this way. It's bringing actually that humanity and humility with you. So in terms of like the best, the best method or like the best medium for delivering it, right now, I mean, I work in a remote world, so the closest I get to face to face is through like a Google meet. But I like just to ask the other person if you have feedback for them. Typically, if I have a new team member join my team, I'll ask them that in their first couple of weeks how do you like to receive feedback? Because people process things differently. Some people prefer to get it in writing so that they can digest, they can read it a couple of times, then we can meet and they can ask questions. Maybe they're like a particularly emotional person and, let's face it, people don't want to cry in front of their boss. So maybe that, just if they know that about themselves, the networks. Maybe they prefer face-to-face so that we can talk through it. I think that the biggest thing is to find know your people, know what they like and what their preferences are, and, if you're not sure, just to ask and saying something like I've got some feedback I want to share with you and I'm hope, I'm hoping that I can, um, that it will provide value for you. That will help you because now, at good time, if they say yes, like sure, face-to-face better, or do you want me to type it out, like just ask, yeah, the point is you're just getting the feedback to them. It doesn't really matter how it's delivered.

Katie Snow: 27:35

But then, when it actually comes time to deliver that feedback, I think bringing that humanity with us as well, and acknowledging that I've been in a situation, on both ends of giving and receiving feedback, where emotion has been really high, and one of the best things that one of my leaders ever did for me was I was having a tough conversation with him and I was getting really emotional, and because I was getting emotional, I was spending more time focusing on what my face looked like and whether you could tell I was turning red and I was teary. Then I was actually invested in the conversation and he had said to me do you want to just turn our videos off? And it was like he just gave me that integrity. He let me keep my integrity intact. We turned our videos off. Then I could just like cry through the conversation. I didn't have to worry. But he truly held space. He didn't rush me off the call, he didn't. He didn't try to say nice things to make me stop crying.

Katie Snow: 28:21

And the biggest lesson that I took away from that was like I got to leave that conversation with my integrity intact. I got to actually invest in the conversation because I wasn't worried about the you know him seeing me cry and what I looked like in this total ugly state. But also he just held the space and I've brought that lesson with me as a leader and I've tried so hard to pay it forward and acknowledge that when I deliver feedback, the idea is to help the other person. Sometimes they're going to cry, sometimes they're going to be upset. It's not up to me to control their reaction. It's up to me to be as human as possible and to truly hold space.

Katie Snow: 28:59

I think holding space is a buzzword right now. We hold space for this and that for everything. But what that means in the context of giving feedback is that you're allowing that person to receive it and to digest it however works for them, and you're not rushing them off the call. You're not trying to then, you know, toss in some praise or it's okay, or don't cry or like, don't take it personally, no, just hold the space. And if it's an in-person setting I had heard one time on another podcast, like if you're gonna be meeting someone in person, you know it's gonna be emotional Make sure there's a bottle of water, make sure there's a bottle of water or something to take a sip of nearby, because you can hand someone a Kleenex. Sure, like. The last thing I want to do is blow my runny nose in front of someone who's delivering feedback and I'm already feeling insecure but, like taking a sip of water and a moment to breathe and just something to do with your hands can go a long way.

Katie Snow: 29:48

So just thinking about those things that allow the other person to just feel comfortable, to just feel comfortable.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 29:56

Yeah, I think that's really great advice. And the thing too is, you don't know how they're going to react, so, and they're going to react how they react, like there's nothing you can do about that, right? I've had feedback that wasn't even that negative and I got emotional about it. And then it was like in my own head thinking why am I getting so emotional about like this isn't bad? Why am I getting so like worked up about it, right? So we've all been there.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 30:24

Okay, I feel like for myself for sure, like I said before, giving positive feedback is a whole heck of a lot easier than having to give someone negative or maybe not so great feedback, than having to give someone negative or maybe not so great feedback. So what are some tips or what's some some good ways to deliver that feedback? And I mean, if it's negative, it's negative. I don't want to say you have to like make it less negative, but just what are some tips to kind of ease that, I guess, for the for you giving it and maybe for receiving it too?

Katie Snow: 30:57

I guess, for you giving it and maybe for receiving it too, yeah, so for giving it. I think the most important thing we kind of already chatted about was just making sure there is a foundation of trust, and there's a book called Radical Candor by Kim Scott that I live and die by. She is the queen of how to Well, radical candor is defined as caring personally while challenging directly. So if the people you're leading know that you care personally about them, you can challenge them directly and it doesn't seem so disastrous. They know that you have their best interest in mind and it's not a threat. And so you've used the word a couple of times now negative feedback, and I think we have to reframe to just constructive, which is, I mean, same same, same but different, right. It doesn't have to reframe to just constructive, which is, I mean, same same, same but different, right. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can actually be a good thing, it's just constructive. So if they, if you're, if the people around you, know that you care really deeply about them and that your intention is to help them it's that's the first step it's going to be received a lot better.

Katie Snow: 31:55

I have an example of a piece of feedback I had to deliver one time. It was possibly the hardest feedback I've ever had to deliver and basically the short of it is brought someone new onto a team I was leading and he just rubbed people the wrong way. They just didn't like him. And at first the feedback was coming into me and I'm like you guys, like fine, you don't have to be friends with this person like, you just have to, we've got to figure this out, we've got to figure out how you can work together. But the feedback just kept rolling in and rolling in and I'm like okay, this is now just a distraction and this is a waste of time.

Katie Snow: 32:27

So I was trying to get them to give this feedback directly. I'm like, if something that he says rubs you the wrong way, tell him. But it was so personal. Mackenzie was like the feedback was literally just I don't like you, and that is the hardest. It's very personal. And so this leads me to well, two things. One, we never want to start feedback by saying don't take it personally, because it is personal. It's always personal, right, it's not a personal attack, but it is personal. Um, but anyways, I ended up.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 32:58

It's I ended up saying like pardon, no, it's just you as yourself. When someone says something to you, even if they're trying to help you, your first kind of thing is to take offense to it because it's like I didn't do it right or good enough or whatever it is. And that's you personally, so it's understandable for sure.

Katie Snow: 33:19

Yeah. So with this particular person I ended up like I went to work and trying to figure out like how can I?

Katie Snow: 33:28

give basically basically m, so but. But I'm like, okay, how can I go in for the kill? I gotta rip the band-aid off because this guy's gonna self-sabotage. Basically because at the end of the day, if you can't collaborate with your team like it is going to be an issue, it's going to impact your success in the role.

Katie Snow: 33:47

So I I mustered up the courage. I just asked him if we could chat. I said I've got some tough feedback to deliver to you and it's going to feel really personal. Is this an okay time? And he's like yeah for sure. And I basically said like you know, your performance is really good. There's no concerns on that front.

Katie Snow: 34:05

And I, I think I did say also, this feedback is hard for me to give to you and you, you know you never want to make it about yourself during feedback, but I did acknowledge because I was like visibly uncomfortable. So I wanted him to know the reason that I look so uncomfortable is because I care that this lands the right way and it's just hard. So I hope that it lands the right way and we can chat through it if it doesn't. But I basically just said like I think it's really important that you know how you're being perceived by the team, and I shared some examples of how he typically engaged a lot when he wanted to showcase a win, but he didn't engage a lot when another team member shared a win or he didn't celebrate others a lot and it just kind of made him look arrogant. And I'm like to be honest, like the feedback is just that, like you're not an enjoyable person to work with. That's all there is to it. And the reason this matters is because, like it's going to stunt your growth, because a lot of the successes we have as a team come from strong collaboration. You're going to lean on your teammates for support on things.

Katie Snow: 34:59

And then I just said, did do you know you're being perceived this way? And he was like no, I was like I didn't think so. Like I know, I know your heart, like I think I think you just want to do a good job and I think it's okay for others, for you, to want others around you to know you do a good job. That's human nature. I also want praise and I want people to tell me I'm doing a good job. So, like, seriously, no harm, no foul, but what are we going to do about it? And he was like, yeah, like what can we do about it? And Mackenzie, it was like the next.

Katie Snow: 35:29

I feel like within a week it was resolved and there were relationships, sort of budding on the team, and things were good. And looking back, like I'm so, I'm so thankful that I put myself in that uncomfortable position for 15, 20 minutes, so so I didn't have to move them out of the business because that's what it was going to result in. It was going to result in a huge loss for him, and it didn't have to, because he just needed to know someone needed to tell him hey, we kind of think you're a jerk and we don't like working with you. And so we saw like an immediate turnaround. And it turns out he is a super likable person. He was just trying really hard to make his mark in the business and it was going to cost him his job or something to that effect.

Katie Snow: 36:05

But, um, he apologized to the team. He came forward and was, like you know, explained his, the way that he thought he was being perceived and what he was, you know, trying to do within the team. Um, and from there on out, people felt a little bit more comfortable and as a leader, I gained the respect of the team that I wasn't going to shy away from it just because they couldn't clearly articulate Um. But I built that trust and you know what? It made it easier to go to other people on the team with feedback, cause they're like well, she cares, right, like she's going to tell me she's going to tell me if something's off.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 36:39

So, yeah, that's awesome and I I like the way you did that by prefacing it. Like, this is a really hard conversation for me to have with you, because if you're visibly awkward or uncomfortable, like they're going to pick up on that too, and you know like you don't want it to go sideways right from the beginning. So I think that was a really good approach. Um, feedback is something too that I've been in roles where there's just like crickets and you have no clue what you're doing or how you're doing. So what happens when you don't give feedback? Like, what detriments do you see from that when you don't receive feedback? Yeah, like, so if you're um, if, or if you're the owner of the business and you don't, you're not giving your staff feedback or your team feedback, um, like, what can, what can go south for you?

Katie Snow: 37:33

Right, I think you just sort of lose control over growth If you aren't giving feedback. People are probably floundering a little bit, even if they don't show it. They may not be clear in which of their behaviors are helping them versus what you're harming them. And there's always something like you can, you know, think of any person you've ever worked with. There's always something you can point out that you liked about working with them and something that you didn't love.

Katie Snow: 37:54

And if we don't point out those things that we don't love or that aren't beneficial, or even quirks, like everyone has blind spots, and if we're not pointing those out, they're going to perpetuate because they just don't know, right? So I think you just lose control over, like, the elevation of your business If you're not regularly giving feedback. And as a business owner, I would care about the amount of time wasted by people trying to figure out you know what they're doing well and what they're not doing well, cause if you're not giving them feedback, you better believe like they're thinking about it. Like am I doing okay? Am I performing okay? Where do I stand with this person? And those are man hours that you don't want to want to be wasted. So why not just cut to the chase and and be really clear, to really clear about um, about where people stand with you.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 38:41

It's easier for everybody. Yeah, I agree, and, like you said, where if you didn't have that difficult conversation with that one team member, you likely would have had to let him go essentially and just think about that having to let someone go and hire someone new and bring them on and train them, do all of that that's a heck of a lot worse. To me, more work than just having that conversation.

Katie Snow: 38:57

Right, yes, and the negative impact that that has on the team. So, as you're answering the question better than I am, that is the negative effect. If you don't do it and you have to move someone out of the business, then there's change management. Then other people are shaking in their shoes for the next three weeks trying to recover and you know there's always little instances cropping up reminding you that this person was let go and there's probably capacity issues in the interim.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 39:35

While you fill the role, your career, whether it's customer service or feedback or whatever it is is there a most important lesson that you think you learned that you want to share with the ?

Katie Snow: 39:54

I think, don't be ruinously empathetic. I think, as a leader, we have, as a human, we have a tendency to want to be liked, and being liked and being respected are two different things. So, when you're faced with a business decision whether that's around giving feedback, receiving feedback, um, really anything in terms of implementation or change management in the business when you're making decisions, you need to think am I behaving in a way that caters to me being liked, or maybe being respected and giving feedback, for example, or even sometimes moving someone out of the business, you're not going to be liked in the short term. I've also been in the position where I've had to let someone go who the team really, really loved but who was, at the end of the day, sandbagging the team, and in the short term, they did not like me for that. But in the longterm, even people who were extremely upset about it in the beginning and I had always tried to create an environment where they could come to me, come tell me, like, if you're mad about it, let's like, tell me. You know we have to create that open dialogue and I um, I can remember people coming, people being really upset about it and then coming back to me a couple of weeks later and saying I have really respect that decision, like I see it now. Now I see, because you know I've had to pick up their email threads or I've had to do this, and like it's clear.

Katie Snow: 41:09

So just really thinking about the difference between being liked and being respected as a leader. And then the other thing I think, just from like my whole, like from the onset of me working in the restaurant industry to where I am today, something that I would leave listeners with is just that, like your grit is never wasted, I definitely felt like I was overworked and under-recognized and underpaid for so long and I thought like I lost all confidence. Like do I have value to offer someone? And then, when I joined seven shifts, it was like the bamboo effect. It's like my growth at 10 X, I was afforded these opportunities that in the moment, I can remember coming home to my husband and saying like I don't deserve this, like how have I been offered this? And it was like no, no, this is like finally, repayment for the hard work that you've put it, like you've done the hours, like you've you've put in the time to learn these skills and to to develop this type of value and now it's just being recognized.

Katie Snow: 41:58

So if you are working really hard and you're not getting where you want to go, um, I think you know, if you're not planted in the right soil you're not going to thrive, right? You just have to find that you have to be planted in the right soil. The grit is not wasted. So keep working hard, but also keep looking for that environment where you can have that growth and that opportunity to showcase all the hard work you've put in. So the grit's never wasted.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 42:24

I love that advice and I agree. Nothing substitutes that hard work and perseverance, right? Nothing. Awesome, atie, thank you so much for being on. I know people probably want to know a little bit more too, and I know you have a really great LinkedIn page, so is that the best place for them to find you if they want to learn more or reach out?

Katie Snow: 42:46

Yeah, definitely. I would be really happy to connect or to chat or book coffee with anyone that wants to reach out and chat more about anything leadership, mentorship, feedback, especially so you can find me on LinkedIn, for sure.

Mackenzie Kilshaw: 42:59

Awesome. Thank you so much, atie, for being on. I had such a blast this time just flew by. So thank you very much for everyone listening. We'll see you on the next episode. Thanks for listening to Winning. Be sure to subscribe to get all of our new episodes. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to Winning. To catch all of the latest from us, you can follow Winning Podcast on Instagram at winning underscore podcast, facebook at Winning Podcast, and on Twitter at winning pod. Winning was created and is produced by me, mackenzie Kilshaw Music, created by Summer Furby, editing by Seth Armstrong. Special thanks to Shauna Foster for voicing our opening and, of course, a huge thank you to this episode's guest. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.