#WINNING
#WINNING
Creating an Instagram Blueprint for Business Growth with Mishelle Thorpe
Unlock the secrets to Instagram success with Mishelle Thorpe, the graphic designer who transformed into an online coaching phenomenon. On this episode, we navigate the twists and turns of Mishelle 's incredible entrepreneurial journey, which began at the tender age of eight. Together, we dissect the mistakes that can trip up budding entrepreneurs on social media and delve into the societal hurdles that often discourage women from following their business dreams. Mishelle 's compelling narrative is not just a story of triumph over adversity, but also a masterclass in the resolute mindset and strategic savvy needed to conquer the business world.
Mishelle reveals the transformative power of personal branding, explaining why consistent, authentic visuals and messaging are non-negotiable for trust-building with your audience. Mishelle and host Mackenzie contrast the needs of up-and-coming enterprises with the freestyle approach of celebrities, and we share practical tips on crafting a social presence that resonates and engages, using stories for informal connection, and maintaining a clear distinction between personal anecdotes and business offerings.
Our conversation rounds off with a strategic deep dive into the art of serving through social media, a subtler yet more effective approach than the hard sell. We talk about the journey of turning followers into loyal email subscribers and cultivating relationships that extend beyond the digital sphere. As we explore the intricate dance of content creation that addresses client problems, we provide valuable strategies for leveraging Instagram, from crafting a magnetic bio to navigating the ever-changing landscape of hashtags and algorithms. Join us for this episode, a veritable treasure chest of advice, as we share our experiences and guide you towards making your mark in the busy world of online business.
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Winning is your guide to making it in business. Join our award-winning host and entrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and special guests in casual conversations that will educate and inspire you on your business journey. Winning will help you learn the hard lessons the easy way, with guidance from celebrated entrepreneurs and business leaders. It's fun, it's informative, it's Winning Hello.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I am your host, mackenzie Killshaw, and today's guest is Michelle Thorpe.
Mishelle Thorpe:How are you? I am doing amazing. Thank you for having me awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Thanks for being on. So if you are tuning in and you don't know about and what she does, she's a graphic designer who's built two successful online coaching business. Over 90% of her paying clients come from social media, which is huge. We're going to talk a lot about social media. She is founder of the Electric Company and she creates graphics and promotional materials for service-providing women and nonprofits. She's an international speaker and she's helped hundreds of women change their world through their businesses. So obviously I love women in business. I love social media. We're going to get right into that. So thank you so much for being on. Oh, you're welcome. It's my pleasure. It's awesome. So I gave a little bio about you, but why don't you just really tell the listeners who you are and really what is it that you do?
Mishelle Thorpe:I started my first business when I was eight years old. That was back in the 80s. I knew that entrepreneurship was in my blood. I knew that that's what I wanted to do. My first business completely tanked. I was going to write horoscopes air quotes, for those who are listening, I am not gifted in that area, but that didn't stop me. I was going to do my thing. Back then we advertised in the nickel ads. It was this little publication that you paid five cents for and you could buy an RV or adopt a kitten or hire M to write your horoscope. Nobody did that, but that didn't matter. I was still so jazzed about being my own boss. But somehow I just kind of fell out of that as I followed the path that I felt like I should be following.
Mishelle Thorpe:I went to school. Nothing wrong with getting your degree, I'm not saying that. I went to school. I pursued the career that my parents wanted me to pursue. I found myself sitting at a desk at my quote unquote perfect corporate job. Realizing that I was just completely miserable, I cried. I pulled my face off at my desk. People were like what's wrong with that girl? I was realizing that I was miserable and I didn't know really how I got there and I didn't know how to get out. That was right around the time that I had an opportunity to start a coaching business for the first time. This was 2017 and we were no longer advertising in the Nickel ads Everything was online.
Mishelle Thorpe:I can write a Nickel ad. Sign me up for that. Everyone said, , Instagram is where it's at. You have to be on Instagram. This is where you're going to grow your business.
Mishelle Thorpe:I said all right, I'm in, I'm all in. I didn't have an Instagram account. I know it was 2017 and everybody was already on Instagram, but I wasn't. My bunny was. I had an account for my bunny and he was really super cute, but I decided he has I don't know like 500 followers. That has to be a gold mine, right? 500 people, I'm going to be rich tomorrow. Let's just take over his account, change the username and post one day about him and then the next day post about hey, I'm a coach now who wants to hire me? Yeah, I sat back and I waited for the credit cards to go in nothing happened.
Mishelle Thorpe:Nothing happened. Surprise, everyone always knows that that's coming. Nothing happened. I thought, wow, this is going to sell itself. 500 people, this is a no-brainer. But I realized really quickly that nothing sells itself. No matter how excited you are about your business, no one else is going to be as excited about it as you are. So I had to figure it out or just go back to that miserable corporate life. Clearly, I'm here. So I figured it out. I'm able to retire from corporate life in 2020. I'm sure we'll dig into that a little bit as well, but I realized that there was a way for you to sell on social media and there was a way for you not to. I was mastering the how to not, and I had to master how to do it. Here we are three, four years later.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And it really is. I don't know if you call it a science or an art or what, but it's not just like throw a post up there and you're going to get followers or sales or whatever it is.
Mishelle Thorpe:Absolutely not, and people are still making that mistake to this moment. People are doing that right now. They're hitting post, they're posting and praying, and that is not a strategy.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I know I hear so many people say well, I post every day and I'm not getting anything. But I'm posting every day. That's what you're supposed to do. I'm like well, not necessarily right. There's a lot of other factors.
Mishelle Thorpe:There's a lot of factors that go into it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, we're going to get really into that. I just want to kind of go back a little bit. When you said you were eight years old, you started your first business and then, of course, you did what kind of society tells you to go to school, get the job. I feel like that's very much like how I was too. I did high school jobs, but I didn't even realize entrepreneurship was a thing, and I'm guessing that's kind of the same for you.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yeah, I mean, even up until the time that I decided that I was going to become a full-time entrepreneur and I shared that with those closest to me it was, oh, that's scary. How can you have not a guaranteed paycheck, you don't have health insurance? I mean, I think that's just where taught, where I don't know why, I don't know, but that working for somebody else is the only way to go, or risk being homeless, and that is absolutely 1,000% not the case. It's hard. We could go off about how I think there needs to be a lot more support for entrepreneurial folks out there, but that's another time and place. But no, that is not the only path forward, and that's one thing I preach all the time. If this is the path that you know you want to take, take it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, I agree, and the thing is I always tell people to if you never take that chance, you never know. And if you take the what? If that's right, and if you take that chance and for you it was taking over your pets page and being like, okay, now it's gonna work. And it didn't work. You pivoted to how it worked. You learned, you did make some changes whatever we're gonna talk about that but you made it work, even though at first maybe that was a failure quote-unquote I like to say learning experience but maybe didn't work out at first, but guess what? Now it really is working out.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, it will right if you have a good idea, yeah, and you do the things that you need to do, not just what you think you need to do, because what you think you're doing social media, probably is it what's gonna get you there, right? Yeah, yeah, we're gonna get really into it. Um, okay, but tell us a little bit more about your coaching and your expertise. How did you maybe, like, how did you get to know all of the stuff about social media?
Mishelle Thorpe:It was kind of around the the time that I started posting on my bunny's page and realizing that that wasn't going to work. I started, I was a sponge. I started absorbing all the information that I possibly could from every source, everyone who had made it, everyone who was more successful Than I was. I wanted to know how often? If social media is, where is that? How often should you be posting? What kind of content should I be posting? Where should I be posting? I wanted to know all of it.
Mishelle Thorpe:But I also needed kind of entrepreneurial one-on-one. I mean, I was working in the corporate space, so how am I supposed to pivot from this massive company with a department for everything to me being the only person? So I needed to soak up all of that. And where my pivot point really was is I didn't resonate with a lot of the teachings that were, that were popular back then about posting it. You had mentioned it before posting every single day, well, if I'm wearing every hat in my company, I kind of don't have time for that and I'm not yet at a point where I want to hire someone to do that. And if you never want to do that, well, it's just. You realize there's just the spiral of how am I supposed to get it all done.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes and I felt like I couldn't do that successfully without compromising my personal life. So I did some trial and error. I pulled in this piece and that didn't work, like the posting every single day. Well, what about three times a day? And what if I really got specific with my hashtags? And what if I really focused on Instagram first and the other second, third, etc. Yeah, that is really where I found my success and that's where I started teaching other women how to emulate what I had done. Then they had success, and then others had success and it just kind of blossomed from there.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, that's awesome when you, when you changed from your bunny page to your page. I don't even have this in my notes, but I want to talk about branding your brand, like how important was that? Because your page before that was about your pet right and clearly you need to now make it about how you're a coach and how you can help other people. So how important was that brand for you to get going? I didn't have branding.
Mishelle Thorpe:In the beginning, I didn't understand the importance of branding and that now is something that I really, really stress. Helping other women with who are getting started on social media, branding is absolutely key, but I was stuck back in that, oh well, if they want this result, they're gonna hire me. My coaching sells itself and I've said it already, I'll say it again You're coaching. Your service providing does not sell itself. You do need to have a brand. You need to. You need to have we're getting into the specifics now but you need to have colors and fonts that emulates who your business is, who your target audience is. You need to have a consistent look.
Mishelle Thorpe:Your Social media profiles cannot be a collection of random images or memes that you found funny or things that other folks have created. They're hiring you. They want to see you. They want to see your brand, not someone's page who could be a business but could be just a random person sharing funny things. Branding is 1000% key. The lesson I didn't know in the beginning yeah, I don't think many people do know about branding honestly, because I'm kind of the same as you.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I get lots of messages and questions and I go and I'll go look at a page and I'm not a social media expert, but I'll just look at somebody's Instagram page and they're like tell me what you think. And I'm like who are you? Like there's every, there's no theme, there's no, everything is random. They don't have a logo or the picture isn't even of the logo, it's some random picture. They like like I I can't even tell by looking at that who you are as a business, what you stand for, what's important to you, and Then I'm just lost, right. So why do I want to follow that person or engage in their content when I don't even like get it?
Mishelle Thorpe:Absolutely, and one misstep and one way. I think that everyone in business not just entrepreneurs, but every business owner why they make these mistakes is they look at who they look up to on social media, usually those that have a huge following we're talking like Beyonce or Taylor Swift level accounts. Taylor Swift and Beyonce can show up differently on social media than anyone else can. They already have that cloud, they already have that respect. Together they could put up any piece of crap and their followers would be like it's true, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. We are not of that caliber yet. I mean, I will never be Taylor Swift. Let's just be real. But when you're just starting out, you have to realize that people don't know you, people don't trust you and without having your ish together visually and behind the scenes when you're delivering those services, no one is going to trust hiring you. It's completely different than those accounts that you're looking up to.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly, and that's why the well I post every day and I'm not getting any traction. That's why, because if you're posting, if it's your business page, and you're posting a t-shirt and then a cat, and then your lunch, and then your favorite song, and what it doesn't, people don't care. I hate to say that, but they don't care.
Shauna Foster:People don't care.
Mishelle Thorpe:It is really it's no longer social media. I've started calling it selfish media, because people aren't really that interested in getting to know you that deep, Maybe if they become a huge fan of yours. But at least initially you have to hook them with your branding, with something free that you offer. Help them get to know you before you show them what you have for lunch. That's a personal profile. You cannot expect business results from a personal profile.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly, and I think the thing too is, if you're doing like a lunch and Fridays thing, maybe that goes on your story where it's as little 30 second thing that you're like every Friday I meet somebody for lunch, we talk business and here's where we are and that's it. It's not a post, it's not a real right, exactly, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe:You're so right. You don't need me here. You already know what to do on Instagram. Anything that is personal in nature, is not branded, is maybe something you found that someone else did that you don't want to take the time to recreate. Anything that really is not a billboard for your business belongs in your stories. Write that one down. You don't need to because you already know.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:You know what, though? I learned it and I'll be completely honest with you. As silly as this is, a few nights ago, I went through my personal Instagram and I was scrolling. I think I was looking for a photo of something that I knew happened like six years ago. So I was just like I'm sure it's on Instagram scrolling through and I was with my niece, who's in early 20s, and I said, oh my God, Instagram used to be like Snapchat for us, like I had pictures on there literally of my lunch, or like girls night out, and like a wine glass, and I archived a whole bunch of photos.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Oh, I know because I was like no now that's something that you'd Snapchat to your friend but you don't post on your Instagram page. Oh, and I was like things have changed. But if and that's my own personal page, that's not my like podcast page or anything but if somebody went to look at me and they scroll back, they think this is weird, right. So important to look back at what you've got on there. Maybe you're not just starting out, but maybe you look back and think, okay, this doesn't like fit the times now or my brand now I've got to get rid of it and just archive it.
Mishelle Thorpe:One of the first things that I would go through when I offered a lot of one on one coaching was going through and archiving all that stuff that does not serve your brand. Now, one of the rules of thumb that really applies to any platform, but especially Instagram, because Instagram is so visual where the others are kind of combination platforms of visual and your caption, your text, anything like that but especially with Instagram, is if you want to put it on a billboard and be proud driving by that on the highway, you don't want to have it on your social media, especially on Instagram, and I love that.
Mishelle Thorpe:I wanted to take a few seconds for those who don't really grasp, which is most people. Don't feel bad if this is you grasp the difference, why Instagram is so different from the others. When you go to a business Facebook page or someone's business on LinkedIn and you're looking at their profile, it's really similar. It's well more so on Facebook, but it's really similar to that scrolling feed. Look, you see what they've posted. You see, if they've posted a video, the description of that video. If they've posted a graphic, you can see the caption. You can really see it all. But when someone stumbles across one of your Instagram posts, they go to your profile. It's not like that. It's the grip.
Mishelle Thorpe:It's those boxes and only the boxes. So the visuals that you have posted today back through all of time. They have to speak for themselves and they have to really captivate that person into tapping to learn more. You've only got seven seconds before they're on to the next, so that's why that's where I come in as a graphic designer. You have to be so intentional around the graphics that you're posting that you're adding video covers when they call them covers on Instagram, it's thumbnails and other verbiage on the other platform but that you are in control of how you are represented on your social media profiles, so that folks aren't getting the wrong idea or works not getting any idea at all and bouncing over to someone else's profile when you've lost them forever.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly, because then they're gone.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:They're not gonna come back. No, exactly, okay, we're kind of talking about it, but let's talk about strategy. Do you need a strategy for Instagram? I think we all know the answer yes. I think. If you're gonna say no, we better just listen to this podcast 20 times over, absolutely. And what do you need in your strategy?
Mishelle Thorpe:You really need to be.
Mishelle Thorpe:Instead of thinking about what's going to look good in a feed or what fun video can you recreate that you've seen, you need to be planning for what your grid is going to look like.
Mishelle Thorpe:Feed is today, grid is forever, so you need to be intentional about making sure that your ideal client can see who you are, that any objections that you commonly hear about working with you, that you're able to bust those through the use of your graphics. You have to show them something that's free, that you offer. Ideally, on a social media situation, we're talking about a free download instead of a free call, a free course, something like that, something that they can digest really quickly if it gets them on your email list. And here's one that is so often overlooked a glowing testimonial, not a big testimonial, not where you've painstakingly written a caption and it took you two hours to get it right. They're not going to take the time to read the caption until they're compelled to learn more. Put the highlights on a graphic and then take it a step further and pin that to the top of your profile, so you're all but ensuring that your ideal client is going to see that before they move on.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, I love that and do you advise people to use? I mean, I know you want to catch someone, you want to catch their attention, but in the actual post should they be using just the kind of the catchphrase I'll say or the thing that I don't want to say, beat, that's uncerebral, but the thing that gets their attention, and then more in the caption, or should they be putting more in the post?
Mishelle Thorpe:It's a combination of both we don't want to be using. We don't want to over sensationalize. People are so attuned to what's click bait now and they won't click on it, even if they're interested, because they don't want to be the sucker that clicked on it. So we want to be very, very intentional about how we're wording it. If we're sharing tips about this thing, we want to say five tips to this thing and then get into it in the caption. There is still value in knowing how to write a great caption. Even with the invention of AI and things like that. There is still value in the caption. But first and foremost, you have to catch them with whatever visual it is, or they're never going to read the caption.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That's right. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of a balance and I think that is trial and error. Is that how you find that out for your audience?
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes, it definitely can be, especially Instagram, and I say Instagram because that is my platform of choice. But Instagram especially gives you so many valuable insights, so you know what kind of content your audience is really interested in. That said, insights aren't everything. Engagement isn't everything. I have had clients hire me who never engaged with any of my content. I've had clients hire me without even following me and they found me on Instagram and I know because of how tags work and things like that. But it's really interesting how so many folks put all their eggs in the engagement basket and they think, well, I'm getting a lot of likes on my videos, so I just need to keep posting videos. Well, are those people buying from you? Are they getting on your mailing list at least? Are you converting them into leads for your programs? If the answer is no, and whose liking is your mom and your aunt and your cousin? They're not your client.
Mishelle Thorpe:You're audio quiet.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe:So stop catering for those people.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and I just heard you talk about conversion and in my day job I'll say I talk about or think about and look at conversion all the time. Do you want to just explain? Because I think for a lot of people, when they're just starting out and they're OK, I've got to build my Instagram and everything what exactly would that conversion be? Because I think a lot of people hear it it's like a buzzword, but they're not exactly sure and no one wants to ask, right, because then you're the person that didn't know what that meant.
Mishelle Thorpe:Exactly, exactly. And even those that do know what it means. For when I used to just do Instagram strategy, when that was kind of my bread and butter, folks would say, oh well, you sell on Instagram, so you don't have an email list or things like that. And no, having a social media presence doesn't mean that you're selling on social media. Eventually they'll buy from you and that sale came from social media or they would never have found you in the first place.
Mishelle Thorpe:But what I consider success and what I teach my clients, the kind of conversion you're looking for on social media, is converting on to your email list, having them request your lead magnet, fill out that form and have you be able to deepen that relationship with them via email. Not necessarily and I was going to say not necessarily, but absolutely not that you're posting every single day about I have this service, it's 50% off, or you can work with me for $495, or things like that. No, social media is not where you're selling. It's where you're serving. And, yes, those conversions will bolster your business because you're able to really get to know them better and have them get to know you better. But social media is not a selling platform in and of itself.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Right, so really, social media is where you put the content. So maybe it's a strategy to whatever, whatever, whatever, depending on what the person's doing. But then it's going to your website to get on the email list to get the free download that you're going to help them, and then probably you should be upselling them on your website to your paid thing or your one-on-one coaching or whatever it is.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes, absolutely absolutely.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:People forget this all the time. They think they only need Instagram and Facebook, but it's just your stepping stone to get them to your website email list. It's just a mastermind tool. It cannot exist.
Mishelle Thorpe:In a vacuum, you cannot expect a business success. It's the only thing you're doing is posting on social media 100% OK.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Thank you for saying that, because it's people just think that that like oh, I have an Instagram shop, so that's all I need.
Mishelle Thorpe:And I think we get a false sense of what it means to be successful in selling as well. Because, especially right now during this time of year when you're scrolling, everything is you know I'm going to date when we're doing this, which I know I should do. But Black Friday sale 30% off and holiday sale everything is a sale, everything is selling. Those are paid ads. That's a completely different experience than you trying to grow your audience by serving them with your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and so your content. And so let's say, like people that listen to the podcast know I had an online store, so I used to have physical clothing stores, but then I had an online clothing store. I would use Instagram to show them the clothes and I would use story, right like today I'm wearing this shirt and this it's also a filter for that. Click here. But when they clicked, they went to the website. Yes, that's the whole point. Right For them to go to the website to shop, to buy. So, yeah, you maybe advertise your sale or you maybe say, like Black Friday, but now and today, right now, everything is Black Friday. I don't know about everybody else, but I have tuned those out. Yes, there's too many. It's been going on for three weeks. It's Black Friday. Used to be one day, it's now like a month.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes, and they have a Cyber Monday, and then I think there's something else next week that we've just invented more reasons to sell and people get so tired of being sold to. There's some statistic I think it kind of escapes me now which is not helpful. I think it's 86% of people find something to buy on Instagram, but 99% of people self-report hating feeling sold to oh, 100%. But they don't want to feel sold to. They want to come across your product. Naturally, they want to get to know you. Naturally, they want to make an informed decision without feeling like you're cramming something down their throats that they didn't want in the first place. They need you. We know that People, whatever it is that your listeners are doing, they have a gift. They're changing the world through their business, through their services, but we don't want to cram it down people's throats. They got to come to us.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly so in my mind and you tell me you're the expert if this is right. But for my clothing store I'd be a lot more, or it would be more beneficial for me, if I had me in a holiday outfit and said, look at our three holiday outfits like the glam outfit for New Year's Eve, the cute outfit, comfy outfit for staying at home on Christmas Day and the holiday shopping outfit and talked about those and then was click here to get your holiday discount. And then it goes to the website yes, right, because more people are going to be interested in that. Because it's like oh, I have a need for that outfit and not just another, just a blob of 40% off.
Mishelle Thorpe:And in that kind of content you are solving your ideal client's problem. They didn't know what they were going to wear for New Year's, or what's trendy. What are we wearing this year? I don't know. Last year it was gold sequence. What are we doing this year? I don't know. Well, Mackenzie just showed me and now she's also offering me a discount what that person feels supported and taken care of, not just 40% off.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe:I wasn't ready to buy yet anyway.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, yeah, no. And if you're the expert, or if you're saying I'm the expert in this thing, they're going to listen to you, yes, yes. And if they trust you that, if you tell me this is what I should wear, that's what I'm going to wear, I'm going to go buy it, and that just goes back on the trust that they have in you, that you've built by having them follow you. Yes, and that's the content that builds that.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yes, even when our end goal is sales and there's nothing wrong with saying that we all have bills to pay. We need shelter, we need food, we need utilities, all that stuff there's no shame in admitting that we have to sell in order to survive. That's fine. But we're not showing up on social media that way. We're showing up on social media to serve our audience.
Mishelle Thorpe:The rule of thumb that I would tell my clients is 90% of your content needs to be serving in some way either a tip, a hack, an outfit idea, a call to action to download your freebie, some kind of free content that either you're giving them in the context of that post or referring them to go and get it. However, whatever that looks like, only 10% can be a flat out sale. Talking about an exchange of money, I have this coaching package. It's $4.95. Go to my website to get it. Something like that Only 10% of your content should be direct sales. Now, we're not talking a podcast episodes. Those are free. Things that are free don't count in that 10%. But when you're looking at over the course of a month, if you're only posting three times a week, that's about one post a month that you're talking about something actually for sale. Go purchase this thing. Give me your credit card. Everything else needs to be serving. We have to be delivering value for our audience until they trust us enough to give us their credit cards.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly, and if you don't provide them value, they're not following you, they're not buying from you. Simple as that.
Mishelle Thorpe:Nope, there's too much competition. There are too many folks out there doing something similar, where every single person has a different business. Even if you serve the same person, even if you're a lifestyle coach and Jenny's a lifestyle coach, you both have different businesses. But if you don't bring them in and if you don't serve them and let them know that you are the one, your style is the way that they need, they're going to go shop with somebody else.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly during the tables a little bit here, just when we're talking about posts and videos and everything else. I know reels are like. Reels are kind of it seemed to be everything now. But how important is, I guess, a music in your post and should you have more reels than posts? Should it be equal? Is there no rule of thumb? You do you or what are your thoughts on?
Mishelle Thorpe:That more graphics than anything else, more graphics than video, more graphics than photos, and it goes back to that seven second rule they're not going to take the time to watch a video when they don't understand the context and they're not bought into you being the expert on anything. Yet music, if you feel called to add that, that's fantastic. I haven't heard an updated statistic about this since the pandemic, but pre-pandemic quantum shorts change Pre-pandemic. 60% of people use social media with the sound off, so we have to be aware of that, not only with music, but also adding captions to everything. Yes, and this is also a need to remember that we've got a huge community of hard of hearing and deaf individuals who rely on that kind of assistance to be able to digest your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, the other option is, if you're not sure, that part underneath the picture that talks about what you're talking about. Right, it gives more information. What about hashtags? Okay, Hashtags is like they were like the end, they were the end all BL. Then people are like just put three, it's like I don't even know if there's rules now, but you need them, right, you do.
Mishelle Thorpe:Well, you do need them, and one of the ways in which Instagram has kind of dialed back its ability to help creators get out there is they've changed the way that hashtags are used, and this happened at the beginning of 2023. I have been hopeful that they would change it back, because no one likes it it's not helping anybody, but it used to be where. I mean just a couple of examples from myself and clients that I've worked with and we could get 10,000 views easily on a post using hashtags. Now, lucky if you get 500 or 600 from hashtags, because they've changed it to just to the only being able to see the top posts on that hashtag, not recent.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And again.
Mishelle Thorpe:I'm hoping that they change that. So if someone's listening to this down the road and they have changed it, this could be old news, but I am still approaching Instagram as if it was the old style, because it could change it any moment where 20 to 30 is actually what's best. There was a study done of 18 million posts. It was done by later, the social media planning company. I love them. They are in store.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Later is awesome by the way. Yep, it is great.
Mishelle Thorpe:They studied 18 million posts and they were looking at engagement, following all you know all of the metrics, and determined that 20 to 30 is actually the hashtag sweet spot.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Okay, yeah, and I think the same as you like. Right now, if hashtags aren't doing what we'd like them to do, that might change. So make sure you're still putting them in there, because if it changes and then they're there, you wouldn't know.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yeah, exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Because you you're not going to go back and add them in, right like. You're better off to put them in and they're there than have to add them back, right okay. Algorithms Everybody's like. The algorithm changed the algorithms. People aren't seeing my posts because of the algorithm. Does it really play a part in your success or hinder your success on Instagram? I?
Mishelle Thorpe:It can, but you can't control it, so I have never advised that folks spend a whole lot of time really thinking about it. Other than, what can you control that can impact that algorithm? Your content, hashtags when they were relevant, and still, to a certain extent, if you find yourself on the top post page, you amazing that's, that's, that's your goal. But think about how you can serve your audience instead of trying to go viral which, by the way, a lot of folks have reported as a very unpleasant experience when you, if you're trying to go viral, you're probably not going to. That's kind of that's a tough target.
Mishelle Thorpe:You don't want to be disappointed when you could otherwise be doing amazing things. But if you're basing your success on your ability to go viral, that's going to disappoint you. But when you are getting, you're not really. Your goal shouldn't be to get your content in front of the most people possible. You want your content in front of of your buyers, of your target audience, the relevant people. I could care less if teenagers in Indonesia are seeing my content. They're not going to hire me.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:No, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe:That metric, what? Okay, so I got a couple more views. That's not worth patting myself on the back over, but if I'm getting my content in front of people who do have the problem that I solve and they hire me, hell yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly. So I you kind of just answered my next thing that I had in my mind which was what's more important, the number of followers or interaction? But clearly it's the interaction.
Mishelle Thorpe:If I I mean. The right answer, I think, is neither, because I've had so many clients hire me. A ton of clients get on, potential clients get on my email list. But a lot of clients pay me who never engaged, they never left a comment, they never even followed me before getting on my email list. But if it's between follower count and your relationship with them, definitely your relationship with them, 1,000 million, trillion percent. I this is my business, it's pays me full time. It is the only income I have and I have less than 2,000 followers on every platform.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and I think that's why, paying followers right, you won't get a bazillion DMs that are like I probably get ten a day now, that are like I can get you 30,000 followers. I'm like, well, big deal, they're fake people, like they're not people that are ever going to get anything from me. So just so I can say I have 25,000 followers like who cares? Right.
Mishelle Thorpe:Right If you are putting out really great content and this goes. This full circle moment goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning. If someone goes to your profile and you have, say, 500 followers, and your page is a mishmash of random stuff, they can't tell who you are, what you do or if it's even relevant to them. They're going to move on. If they go to your profile, there's 500 followers, but you've got your ish together. Your page is branded, it is beautiful, it is serving, it is giving them everything they need and telling them that they're in good hands, working with you. Done yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, at the end of the day. Someone once told me, like if you made a lemonade stand and a thousand people came to the lemonade stand but they just stood in line and they didn't buy anything, or they just crowded around, or you had 10 people come to the lemonade stand that all bought something, you're better off to have the 10.
Mishelle Thorpe:I love that analogy. I'm going to start using that all the time. Use it, use it, go through. You can picture that experience. It's so miserable having all those people standing around staring at you and you have to worry about how you're going to pay your electric bill.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, I know, and it's so funny because just in I think general, like the human brain, you just think, oh, more people is better. Well, more buying people are better. More buying people are better, just more people aren't going to do anything for you. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Is there anything else about Instagram that's kind of important or unique?
Mishelle Thorpe:I think the number one place where Instagram differs from every other platform is the grid experience, and if that is the one platform that you invest more time into, here's a really great hack. Folks tell me all the time I post the same content on multiple platforms. Usually it's I post on Facebook and share it to Instagram. Do it the other way around. Do it the other way around. Create graphics that look good on your Instagram grid and then repost that to Facebook, Linkedin, a wherever it is that you are designed for Instagram first. That is the one platform where your design matters the most.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, because it's aesthetic right. It's just physically aesthetic the look.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yep, yep, all they can see is that grid. Yeah, they have zero context.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And what about your bio? I think that kind of goes back to brand, but your bio is really important.
Mishelle Thorpe:Right, it is really important. It is Now, not everyone's going to take the time to read it, but they are going to skim and see those visuals. So your visuals are going to be number one, but you need to make sure that folks can tell at a glance who you help or what you do, why and how you do it. If they can't, if your bio, if you're a business and your bio is about you, you like cupcakes, you have three kids, you live in Minneapolis that's great, but that's not important to me as someone who doesn't know you, who may be looking for a life coach right, yeah, but if you talk about what you do with who, how you do it, why it's important, those kinds of things. That is relevant to me. That's what I'm going to go with.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, exactly, and that just goes right back to your branding. And then when you see the posts or the photos, videos, whatever it is that resonates more with you because you're looking for the expert in lifestyle coaching, you want that person right and then you're like, okay, this is, this is why I'm following them right.
Mishelle Thorpe:Absolutely, absolutely. You have to make yourself in your business shine, and 150 characters or less it's a tall order on Instagram.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:It is 150 characters or less.
Mishelle Thorpe:It's a tall order, but it's doable.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, so should you put emojis in there.
Mishelle Thorpe:If they add to the bio experience, as if it's like this picture of a paw. If it adds to the experience, if you don't overdo it. If you're using it to describe that you love tacos and roller coaster and things like that I see that kind of stuff all the time that's a hard no. But if it adds to your bio, a couple that's fine, that's fine, awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:So you talked about this a little bit, but just kind of in the grid. For sure, we know for Instagram because it's aesthetically pleasing. But is there anything else that you should approach differently with other platforms? So maybe Instagram versus Facebook.
Mishelle Thorpe:Can you say that again? I'm sorry it got jumbled.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, technology Just cut us off there. So just an approach. So the approach to Instagram, we know is going to be different than other platforms, for example Facebook, because of the grid experience. But is there any other way that it would be different? I know for sure. If you're going to post about through Instagram, then Facebook, yes, is there anything else that you would say? Or should you not? Should you be creating like, then? Obviously, if you're going to have a TikTok account, you better be creating something new for TikTok, or can you use the same?
Mishelle Thorpe:Well, technically, TikTok is not social media. TikTok is an entertainment platform, kind of like YouTube, and I am most definitely not a TikTok expert.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:So I'm not a TikTok. I have an account and I don't think I've ever actually put anything on it.
Mishelle Thorpe:So I feel like but TikTok, aesthetically though, looks pretty similar to Instagram, although it is a different experience because it is short form video and you don't have the option, like you do with Instagram, to post mostly videos, or at least pin videos to the top of your profile.
Mishelle Thorpe:But for I consider Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn to be the big three and for the big three, you want to make sure that you're taking advantage of your pinned, your posts, your featured posts, whatever that platform calls it. Make sure that you are putting your best content forward and your best content I'll say it again when we talked about it a little bit earlier but it's kind of just, guys, a bust, a myth that keeps people from working with you. Yes, your freebie. Tell them why they need it, not just what it is, and a glowing testimonial. Make sure that those three are at the top of your page and that they are graphics, not videos or photos. Make sure that they make it easy for them. Dummy, proof it. Put it right out there so that, unless they're not paying attention, they're going to see it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I love that and I love how you say dummy, proof i t.. And I hate to say this, but people will take the easiest shortest way. So, especially for pinned things, they're the first three things that they see. You're not going to scroll through your feed to find a testimonial. No but if it's right in their face, they're going to read it.
Mishelle Thorpe:Yep, yep, and it may cause them to want to look deeper, but you have to get them. You have to get them. Don't count on them reading content. Don't count on them watching video. Don't count on them scrolling back to that. One time you posted that really well, really amazing post. Post it again or put it on top of your page.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yep, I love that. Do you have a most important lesson that you can share that you've learned along the way?
Mishelle Thorpe:I think it would be not specifically related to social media, but if you feel called to go in a specific direction, especially if it's away from the path that other people tell you you should take, take it. I know we already talked about this, but we will always ask ourselves what if and if you were called to be an entrepreneur? I'm sorry, sis, you are not going to be happy working for somebody else. Just make a plan to exit and retire yourself and do this full time. You will not regret it. It's the hardest I've ever worked. It is so much harder than what I thought a hard day was in the corporate office, but I would. I could never go back to work for someone else, never.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I would be a horrible employee. I cannot agree with you more, though, because if it's in you that fires burning in you, you might try to put it out. It's never going out. It's supposed to be there.
Mishelle Thorpe:It's always going to be calling to you and when you're successful, when you have proven that you can keep your bills paid and roof over your head, your family is going to be like wow, we told you you were a fool. And look at you now and you're going to say yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And is there anything you wish you had known? And maybe that's it, maybe you wish you had known that earlier, but or anything else that you could tell your younger self, or something like oh, I wish I would have known that one. I started.
Mishelle Thorpe:Stop shooting all over yourself the things that you should do. If that's not what you want to do, if you don't feel like that is your path. This is our one life. This is our one chance. So what if you make a mistake? So what if you fall down? What if you fly?
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly. And guess what, if you fall down, you just get back up exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe:Exactly, and it's just you just learn I've fallen down. We could talk for hours about times that I have fallen down, but I get back up every single time and I'm still here.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Exactly and typically the people, your audience, customers, whatever it is, they don't even know you fell no exactly, it's typically behind the scenes and they don't even know it. So brush yourself off, get back up and get out there, right?
Mishelle Thorpe:Exactly, people are paying far less attention to you than you think. Remember, it's not even social media anymore to selfish media.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That's true. It's so true. I love that advice. M, where can people find you? I know they're going to want to learn more. Where's the best place for them to seek you out?
Mishelle Thorpe:Instagram is my platform of choice as a graphic designer. That is where I feel called to be, and you can find me at thorpe. Spell my name weird, it's M-I-S-H-E-L-L-E. Just type that in and I'm probably the first one that pops up.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And we will have your name obviously in the show notes and everything else so people can find you. Literally go and look at s Instagram, who shocked that. You said Instagram to find you right. I think that's a fantastic way to end this episode about Instagram and strategy and whatnot. So thank you so much for being on. I learned a few things and I love it when I even learn, so I know our audience is going to learn a lot. Yay, my joy, you're done.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:It is awesome. Thank you so much and for everybody listening. We'll see you on the next episode. Thanks for listening to Winning. Be sure to subscribe to get all of our new episodes. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to Winning. To catch all of the latest from us, you can follow Winning Podcast on Instagram at u underscore podcast, Facebook facebook at Winning Podcast podcast and on Twitter at Winning pod. Winning was created and is produced by me, Mackenzie mackenzie Kilshaw. Kilschath Music, created by Firby Furby, editing by Seth Armstrong. Special thanks to Shauna Foster for voicing our opening and, of course, a huge thank you to this episode's guests. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.
