#WINNING
#WINNING
The Science of Hiring: Expert Insights from Jessica Willis
Imagine this: what if you could harness the power of recruitment to truly transform your business? In our latest episode, host Mackenzie takes you on a fascinating journey with Jessica Willis, a seasoned executive recruiter and relationship-driven entrepreneur. Jessica gives us an inside scoop into her world - from the early days of her career to earning the title of Certified Talent Management Professional. She openly discusses the immense impact of hiring the right talent on a company's growth trajectory.
Unravel the art of finding the right people as we tap into the expertise of a consultant from Summit Search Group. They reveal their unique, successful approach to headhunting and vetting - a key component in today's competitive job markets. Learn how aligning values and culture between the company and candidates play a pivotal role in long-term success. Transparency, communication, and corporate matchmaking are highlighted as the pillars of an effective recruitment process.
Finally, it's time for a reality check: are your job applications and resumes up to par? With the help of Jessica, we shine a spotlight on the nitty-gritty of job applications, particularly for specialized roles. Discover how to tailor your resume to the job you're eyeing, and effectively showcase your relevant experience and achievements. We also put the topic of job hopping under the microscope, offering advice on how to address contract or term positions in your resume without raising eyebrows. This episode is an absolute goldmine of information, whether you're looking to level up your recruitment game or simply want to ace your next job application.
We are looking for Sponsors for our show!
We have a variety of sponsorship packages to suit every business and budget.
If you have a business that you would like to promote to thousands of people, send us an email at podcastwinning@gmail.com or message us through Facebook or Instagram.
Thanks for listening to this Episode of #WINNING!
Follow #WINNING on:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/winning_podcast/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/winningpodcastpage
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Winningpod
Follow Host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziefirbykilshaw/
Visit our Website: https://podcastwinning.wixsite.com/mysite
Winning is your guide to making it in business. Join our award-winning host and entrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and special guests in casual conversations that will educate and inspire you on your business journey. Winning will help you learn the hard lessons the easy way, with guidance from celebrated entrepreneurs and business leaders. It's fun, it's informative, it's winning.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Hello, welcome to Winning. I am your host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and today's guest is Jessica Willis. Hi, Jess.
Jessica Willis :Hello, how are you? I'm great, how are you?
Mackenzie Kilshaw:yo Good. I'm really glad that you're on today. You know, before we record these episodes, we usually talk for three to five minutes. Jess and I, I think, have been talking for like 20. I'm like we should have hit record a long time ago, but I feel like I already know you and we really just met.
Jessica Willis :Yeah, I feel the same way, that's great. That's a true host right.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Well, thank you. So Jess is a relationship-driven entrepreneur who thrives in the fast-paced world of executive and professional recruitment. As a trusted partner and consultant with Summit Search Group, she headhunts and it goes way farther, beyond job placements, which I can tell you because we just talked about that, and it is a strategic process that fuels business growth while ensuring candidates feel valued, engaged and inspired in their new roles. Jess has tons of experience in industries like tech, finance, insurance, construction, and she is also got her designation of Certified Talent Management Professional, which I think that sounds very, very like fancy. It's a fancy title.
Jessica Willis :It makes me sound more important.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I really like it, and that's from the Canadian HR Academy, so that's cool. I love that title though. A Talent Management Professional Certified. It's fantastic. Well, thanks, Jess. I'm really excited. We've never had anyone like you on the podcast before, so I'm excited to bring some value to people that are listening about employees and recruiting people and finding the right people for your business, and I think that's so important for success.
Jessica Willis :Amazing, my favorite thing to talk about. So we're aligned.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That's awesome. So maybe just in your own words how did you get here, how did you get to be a recruiter? And you have your own business too. Just kind of give us a little bit of background, a little bit more about you.
Jessica Willis :Absolutely so. How did I get here? I graduated with a commerce degree, which is really great because it sets you up for the business world. But, as you know, you have a million options. So when I graduated I knew I was interested in marketing, but I was also interested in HR so it was really kind of I could go either way.
Jessica Willis :As someone who just graduated. I did end up joining a telecommunications company as an advertising planner, which was such an awesome gig to start with. In that role I worked with marketing managers. I also worked with agencies, so I was essentially the middle person. So I got to understand the work of an external vendor and the stressors and the pace there. But I also got to work with a really large corporation where I was able to really see how people grow and navigate in their own careers there. After a few years of being an ad planner which was also so fun I got to work on commercials and radio ads and we're kind of chatting about newspapers before this podcast I started, but I remember being so stressed out, waiting for the local newspaper to come to make sure everything was felt properly and I didn't make any mistakes.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:It's like the Stone Ages now when we're talking about the newspaper, but it's so true, that's what we used 20 years ago.
Jessica Willis :There was no delete or edit or anything there. But oddly enough I actually reached out to a recruiter because as someone that was working for this large company, I understood my trajectory there. But I was really curious, having been with that company for three years, what some other external opportunities look like and I knew I was really interested in continuing with marketing. So when I reached out to them my entire intent was really just long term. I wanted to create a relationship, I wanted to share certain jobs I'd be interested in. I was not actively looking whatsoever and I kind of said in the next three years these are some of the goals I have. If anything comes up, let me know.
Jessica Willis :As luck would have it, about six months later they did find me an opportunity, which was a people leadership opportunity. So a bit of imposter syndrome kind of snuck in there. But the hiring manager at the time honestly is responsible for my career really taking a turn. He saw something in me that quite frankly I still wasn't really aware of and hired me to lead a team of three people at that time who had decades of experience. So I was younger than everyone, with no experience in the industry and no experience leading a team. That would have been intimidating. It was the most intimidating.
Jessica Willis :But when I started, one of the things I decided was please don't call me the sales and marketing manager, call me the sales and marketing lead. I want to earn respect of my team. I want to understand the industry and then I will grow into that role, which I did, and continued and built up the team from I think it was three to 15 people in the course of eight years. It was an amazing job with a great organization that I respect so much still today and, honestly, I do some work with them as well, which is always really rewarding.
Jessica Willis :But there came a time following I think it was my second mat leave where I had this feeling where I just wasn't connecting and collaborating one-on-one with people as much as I could. As you grow in your career and add levels that support you, you lose some of that one-on-one time and I certainly explored options internally and timing is everything. There really wasn't anything there, so I decided I was going to reach out to a recruiter in the city just to get his sense on the market and what he was seeing and different jobs out there, just from a curiosity standpoint. In that meeting I think we sat together for half hour and by the end of the meeting he said I think you'd be a great fit for our team. I was so shocked.
Shauna Foster:I was like well, I don't have an HR background.
Jessica Willis :He said well, we're marketers, we market opportunities, we market candidates, and I think that could be something that you'd really enjoy, given what you've really described could be a potential gap right now, and I essentially got in that elevator to go home and knew right away that that's really what I wanted. So I've been with some at Search Group for the last five years A little different in being an external team member, but an extension of a business instead of grooming and hiring your own team but I really, really enjoy working in different industries, meeting a lot of people, learning about brand new roles every day and really becoming an expert on how to find people that would be best suited for those roles.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, that's such a cool journey because you kind of had two points where you had an opportunity that wasn't probably what you saw yourself in, but look how awesome it's worked out for you it did, absolutely yeah, I'm really lucky.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That's cool, and tell us a little bit more about recruiting. I think we were talking at the before we started recording and you kind of talked about how you're kind of like a real estate agent with supply and demand. I thought that was so interesting because I think back of myself as an employer. I was always, you know, when you're looking for something, you're just looking for a person, but you didn't have that other side where, oh, I have somebody that I think might want to work here. I should approach them right. So just kind of give us a little bit more info on that.
Jessica Willis :For sure. So and I guess just a quick comment before I jump in on that it is definitely a world of who you know, but I think when people use that phrase it's almost like, well, I don't know people, I'm not fortunate, like I don't get this opportunity. The way I look at it is you need to create your own path and find ways to find the right people. You have to advocate for yourself. You really have to kind of get in there, ask the right questions and then those opportunities will present themselves. But there's so many clients that I will work with and they're like hey, I'm thinking about hiring someone that will manage all of our creative materials and come up with new strategies and maybe start a podcast for our company. What do you think of that? And then right away, I know that's a plan of theirs and I can start passively looking and thinking about people that might fit that. So, outside of you know, what I'm about to share is our kind of regular process. I'm also used many times as a consultant, because I do have that network and I do understand how different types of organizations work, whether you're a startup or a nonprofit or a larger company, and then I can get a sense of really what the fit is.
Jessica Willis :But overall, with Summit Search Group, our mission as consultants is to really serve as partners to the organizations that we work with for our valued clients.
Jessica Willis :We're committed to developing and delivering permanent solutions. And so we approach our vetting and headhunting process in the passive and active markets. And what that means is, you know, passive being people who are full engaged in their jobs, they're not actively looking, they're happy. And then those that are at a point right now where they're like, okay, I'm active, you know, I'd like to get moving on a new opportunity. Our primary responsibility as consultants to our clients is to streamline recruitment of exceptional talent, so really bridging aspirations of candidates that are looking for these fresh or open to these fresh opportunities with the needs of our clients to search for outstanding future employees. So we really shoulder, I would say, the extensive responsibilities of the sourcing and the strategic marketing of an opportunity, the vetting, the conducting of initial interviews, asking the tough questions that sometimes are a little awkward for employers to ask, you know, whether it's about work environment or compensation or vacation or just general current dissatisfaction with an employer that a lot of people wouldn't ever bring up in a formal interview.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yes especially in your city or in your area, because who knows that person? That knows that person right. And that's a hard thing for people because you don't want to go into an interview and someone says why are you leaving? Well, I don't agree with the company's doing, and then that gets back to the company where, if someone like yourself, you're not going to reveal that information.
Jessica Willis :No, and I always discourage candidates doing that when they're in an interview. And so my job, I guess, is to I don't want to say I'm a therapist, because absolutely not qualified but to hear from you, you know what is missing or a gap, and then digging a little deeper to realize the core issue, which then I can share with the client, because it really, most of the time, has nothing specific to do about a person. It's something that's missing that we need to find so I can find a different way of getting that information and bringing it to my clients, because, at the end of the day, if my clients can provide an opportunity that matches that, there's no sense in us moving forward, you know, with that candidate, because we really need alignment. So once I have this shortlist for my clients so they're not looking at resumes, they're not reaching out to people I'm doing all of that. What we do is we compile it, we put together candidate profiles, I work with candidates, you know, on how they want to be presented and what they want me to share.
Jessica Willis :So there's a lot of transparency in my process. And then ultimately, once that's presented, it's up to my clients to choose who they'd like to interview and at the end, who they'd like to hire. They're there for support on both sides. So much like your real estate comment. I'm working with the buyers and the sellers and you know of course I want something to end well, but for me, long term permanency is most important. So, awkwardly, sometimes I'm talking candidates out of moving forward with a job because something they've said, or I can tell that they're nervous about something.
Jessica Willis :I know it's not going to be a long term fit. On the other side, sometimes I'm, you know, coaching and working with my clients to really remind them of the skill sets that we're looking for that perhaps within our process we veered away from because we found something else that we were really excited about. So every project has a different length time frame timeframe, but I'm really grateful for all the people that I get to work with each and every day.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and it's really to me, finding the right people. It goes both ways. But finding the right person for your company and, on the other side, finding the right company for you is so important because I've talked with this lots before but your job just isn't your job. You don't just go to your job and then you go home at five and that's the end of it. You're one person. So if what's happening at your job or as the employer, what's happening with an employee isn't working, that causes problems everywhere. Right, it's not just that you can turn it off because you left work. That's not how life works?
Jessica Willis :No, and we spend so much time with the people that surround ourselves during the day so for a lot of my clients when I can tell they're really protecting a culture and maybe someone seems easier to hire if that makes sense.
Jessica Willis :I've already had some flags and I know that my candidate won't be happy long term because X, y and Z and then ultimately my client won't be happy because this will be an employee that's not engaged and potentially disgruntled and still looking for something new. So I really take the process seriously and I think when I go to a party and someone's really curious about what I do, I really say I'm a corporate matchmaker. I need to make sure everybody's happy, everybody's getting their boxes checked off, and that's really where we see more alignment. Yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And intrinsically for you. That's what brings you fulfillment, right, because you want people to be happy in their position and you want the employer to be happy because that's a reflection of you, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think there's nothing worse than having someone in the job that isn't a good fit. I can say that as an employer and an employee right, you have experience on both ends. That's really valuable. Exactly, and I think it's really funny. Before I became an entrepreneur, I had a few jobs and I had a similar path that you had. I had a commerce degree with HR and marketing. I worked for a telephone company, but my previous job that I had before I started my own business, I had the worst manager. I'll just put her out there. It was not a good experience. No one liked this person To upper management. She had a show about her. I'll say that they thought she was fantastic, but her employees were not. Nobody was happy with her and my theory, going into any male business, was I'm going to be the exact opposite of her.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:And not that I need my staff to love me, because that's also not the way to go. You don't want to just be a people pleaser to your staff, but there are so many things that I'm like I'm not going to do this because that was done to me and this is how I felt right and I think those experiences really helped me along the way, even if they were negative.
Jessica Willis :I know I was going to say I think when someone goes through something like that and is forced to do a bit of soul searching and figure out what's happening or what didn't work, it's really important. And, honestly, when I have a potential client that reaches out to me and we talk about the role that we're looking to fill, one of the first questions I ask is why is this role vacant? Is this new? Did they leave? Why did they leave? Did you do an exit interview? What did they feel was missing? Because any step in that direction will really help me find a better fit for that position. So maybe they laughed because they really needed something remote and this company wasn't able to offer that. Well, that's easy. Then we're just very clear on how we market the opportunity. Maybe they were honestly just in the wrong job and the right company. So we've been learning about is it skills? Is it culture? Is it just stock rate fit? Is it circumstance? That's really helpful when we're helping someone find their next step as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:For sure, and for a lot of people that are just starting out. So, entrepreneurs, small business owners, depending what you have lots of times you start with yourself and then you have to add people, or you need to start with a group of people, because we need some sales and marketing, or we need a tech person, or whatever it is. So what is your best advice for people so that they can find the best fit as we just talked about and the most qualified person for the job, because it's really going to be a mix of both.
Jessica Willis :It's a great question and I mean the answer to that can change, but I would say in general, to truly stand out as the most qualified candidate, I would say it's essential to approach the opportunity with diligence and thoroughness, and what I mean by that is ask the question about culture, ask the questions about history If you're not working with a recruiter who's going to provide you this information as a candidate. Ask the questions of the company. See where there's alignment, where their values are at. Show up, do research.
Jessica Willis :There's so many interviews when I was a hiring manager. I'm not sure about yourself, but people would come in for the interview and I'd say what do you know about our company? And they'd say I'm hoping you'll tell me today. Nothing really. They could have rattled off googled and rattled off one sentence and that would have just been satisfactory and we could have moved on.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I had someone say nothing really and I said okay, and I mean really, I just wanted to say I think this is the end of this. Yeah, I think we're done here. Yeah, but same thing I mean as an employer. When someone sends me their resume, I oh, I have a mutual friend I asked about you know, or there's things that you do as the employer, so you should do the same thing as the person looking at the company.
Jessica Willis :For sure, absolutely yeah. And as the employer, so as the entrepreneur and the small business owner, in terms of finding a perfect fit for the role, I think, especially if you're starting small and have that culture that you want to protect, you really need to look at qualities like character, work ethic, professionalism. If this is going to be a face of your brand, you need to have that trust established, that likeability, very, very naturally, because this is your baby and you're protecting it. I think also, someone who just has a general curiosity to them asks questions. That carries an immense weight because they too, with these questions, are really evaluating things that are important to them and ultimately it shows that they really want to make the best decision for themselves as well. They're not just looking for a new gig or something to do for the next little while, they're really evaluating their career quite carefully.
Jessica Willis :There have been some instances where I've had clients that have had smaller business and perhaps they hire someone or perhaps they're looking for someone with strong technical skills, but everyone that we meet really just doesn't have the passion and fire that my client has. So then I'll kind of go back to them and say, listen, we have some more junior technical skills, a lot of people willing to learn. But I think we should really focus on character and how they present themselves and how. They've already come to me as a recruiter and said these three things I don't have experience in, but in my first 60 or 90 days. Here's how I'm going to tackle that and here's how I'm going to prove myself. Those are the people when your company is small and you're looking to grow and scale, you need on your side.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I agree. So really, sit is probably outweighs skill at that time, right, and that's crazy because most people are probably listening, thinking what. But I agree it's easier to help someone learn something than it is. Who they are is who they are, that's not changing.
Jessica Willis :Another interesting thing that I've seen too, especially with startups, is someone might hire, let's say, the head of strategy. This person breathes this company. They are passionate, they're likable, it's their favorite thing to talk about, they are 100% an ambassador. But maybe they're not great at their job and that doesn't mean they're not great for the company. That might just mean that specific role isn't a good fit. So sometimes I almost turn down business. It sounds very strange, but I'll have someone reach out to me and say we have this person in this role. They're not performing. We're really sad we're going to have to let them go. And then I'm kind of doing some of my own coaching and counseling to say, well, what are they good at and is there a way that you can keep them? Is, to lose an employee is a lot, whereas if you can kind of split their role up and have them focus on a different area and then maybe move this over into a different basket, sometimes that can be helpful.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, that's a really good point and I think you're right. Especially in our world today, lots of environments of business are fast, fast changing, and fast, I'm saying before. I'm taking a digital marketing course through York University because that wasn't even a thing when I went to university. So there's so many things that change and evolve and maybe what a person is doing today in six months is kind of past them or they're not great at it. But that person that they are and the employee that they are is fantastic for you. Exactly, yeah, and it's way better off to find them things that they are good at and that they enjoy doing and find someone else for the other stuff. Absolutely, yeah, that's awesome. Are there certain characteristics or qualities that you should look at when you're hiring someone? We kind of touched on that a little bit, but is there like kind of a top few that just make someone a really great person to have on your team?
Jessica Willis :Yeah, so certainly someone who has a general curiosity about them. I think, especially if you are a smaller business, you want someone that will bring new ideas, be very proactive in doing some research and someone who, like I said, really lives and breathes the company. I think when you get to a larger organization those things are great, but ultimately at that point there's a lot of other people that might be steering that ship as well. So I don't want to say it's less important, but it doesn't have as heavy of a weight as when you're a smaller business. Certainly someone that at a first impression you feel could be also a really great ambassador for your business.
Jessica Willis :Often when I do intakes and so what is that? I meet with a client and they'll share a little bit about the position Each and every time I put them on the spot to share why they're still with this company, because nothing is better than social proof and a testimonial from a real person. I think it's great if I share with a candidate. They have such a strong culture. On Fridays they have potlucks. This week they all go volunteering. It's great, I share. Lindsay, who's a hiring manager, said there's no way she could leave because every time they complete a project. She's so excited to see it evolve and see it grow and see what happens next. That's the social proof. So you want someone that can be speaking in a very positive and very genuine way that's all true about your company, because these are the people that will get others to stay, to be retained in the company and also to be in that future lineup of people saying I'd love to work with a company like yours.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, that's awesome. I think too, just a little nugget I got out of there was on the flip side. I have not had a job interview for probably 15 years. It's been a long time. But I remember fresh out of university and those first few years thinking I have to be just ultra professional and very polished. I don't know that I let my true self come out. I'm very outgoing and I'm very talkative. I think it's because I was like well, I want to put my best face forward. Probably that was a detriment.
Jessica Willis :It can be. I think you want to be able to demonstrate who you are as a human being because on day one, you want to feel comfortable at work.
Jessica Willis :You also want to work with a company that respects who you are. When we put together candidate packages for our clients, I don't really talk about personal stuff as much, but I do make it a little more personal than achievement focus. The achievements are great but, as an example say, in her tenure with this company, Mackenzie was able to increase conversion of customers by X percent, which she shares was one of her proudest moments because she worked so hard and she was able to change things in the most dramatic way. What was most important to her is that her customers felt seen and heard and valued. That's more the personal side that people companies, I should say buy into, because they want someone who cares and feels proud and feels intrinsically motivated as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:For sure. Another thing I just thought about too. I don't even have it down here, but it's probably beneficial to do multiple. We'll say interviews, but whatever that is, meetings would have you with a person, you really get a feel for them.
Jessica Willis :One of my clients. This is probably my favorite structure. They had a formal interview in an office setting, asked a lot of the behavioral and situational questions, Maybe the second interview, if there was one, and it was a creative role. They invited them to put a quick assignment together or share their portfolio or talk about what their strategic plan could be in three slides, something quick and easy. Then the third, which is my favorite, is meeting them in a neutral setting, whether it's for breakfast or coffee or lunch.
Jessica Willis :That's when our guard comes down. We're not in a stuffy formal setting, we're eating. We're just chatting about our weekends or our day. It's less stressful for the candidate, so you're able to see how they ultimately would be day to day. Not everyone interviews well. Sometimes someone will be incredible on paper and my meeting with them went so well but they get in a little more of an intimidating setting and they freeze right up. But then they didn't answer the questions, they weren't able to really prove themselves because it was a situation that really didn't lend itself to that. I love an informal meeting to really finalize that decision at the end.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That is really great advice Backtracking a little bit before you get to the interview or the meeting or from the employer side. But what are some things that really set people apart on their resume or CV? Is it resume or CV now? Because I feel like I say resume and I'm so old school, but CV is a different format.
Jessica Willis :I would say it's still resume. When I meet with a candidate and I don't have a job that fits with what they're looking for, I always try and leave them with some sort of advice. Often I'll say let's pull up here, link it in and go through it together. I love giving feedback. I don't create profiles, I don't write resumes, but I'm very good at editing because I can tell people what I look for with resumes. My latest advice it's not popular.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:It's more work. Well, sometimes the not popular is the way you got to go, because it's what gets you the results, absolutely.
Jessica Willis :It's to customize everything. I think for the last few decades the advice has been customize your cover letter, make sure you're sending it to someone and plug in the job name and plug in the company name. I'm really surprised how many people don't do that. And I got somebody else's cover letter.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I'm really interested in working for your company, and it's a totally different name.
Jessica Willis :All the time. All the time. Yep or I'll get. Dear Sir or Madam, it's very easy to see who posted a job. If that's not there, at the very least to the hiring manager of X-Position. At least you're showing that. You've demonstrated that. So customize everything. What I mean by that is yes, the cover letter absolutely needs to be customized. A big suggestion I have in resumes and cover letters is to use some of the lingo that was in the job ad.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yes, yes.
Jessica Willis :As an example in sales, if a job posting has business development as a requirement and someone's terminology that they use is prospecting, if it's a larger company and it gets sent to an applicant tracking system, it might actually flush out that resume, even though they're completely qualified, because it didn't use the same words. If it says sales achievements or conversion, try and use similar words in yours so that it makes sense. My job is to review resumes and cover letters, but a hiring manager that has a bottom line to oversee people to see strategies planning. They don't have time to go line by line to see if something makes sense. So trying use similar I would say verbage. In a cover letter I would always say have at least one paragraph it could be two sentences long on why you're interested in that specific company.
Jessica Willis :Good job company, what you know of them. If there are any gaps, if you see a posting and you're like, ooh, I don't have five years of experience, I have two, but I have everything else, talk about it, say, as you can see, I am a little lighter on the experience that you're looking for. However, here's some informal experience that I've had that really lends itself to this role. Or in a volunteer capacity, this is what I was overseeing, so try and just address the elephant in the room. So that's the cover letter Resume. I still think you should customize.
Jessica Willis :We were chatting earlier about marketing. So if someone had a more general background but more recently had more specialized experience and they were applying for a more specialized role, you want to pull out specialized experience. You want to get metrics in there that really align with what the company is looking for. As an example, I was working on an email marketing manager opportunity, very focused on open rates and conversions and very metrics focused on email and content. I had someone who was a director of marketing applied for the position, but all of their experience that they had on their resume was really focused on newspaper and out-of-home ads and social media, so it didn't really lend itself to the role at all.
Jessica Willis :Now this person reached out to me directly and said I was really surprised that you didn't call me about it, because I've x, y and zed experience with email marketing campaigns, so that's exactly what I needed to hear.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:But sometimes timing isn't on your side.
Jessica Willis :So take the time. If you're really excited about a job, take the time, use the language, customize it, share with passion why you think it's a great opportunity and share the achievements that lend itself to the role.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:That is fantastic advice and I think as the employer looking at that. Let's say you got 10, just to say 10 resumes and six people have term Adam and just a general copy-paste thing and four have this. I bet you those six are filed under G for garbage.
Jessica Willis :Yeah, right that. And also you know when you see a posting. I realize not everyone would know what Summit Search Group is, but if you're going to apply to a company, maybe take a look at who they are. So often I get cover letters. Dear Sir or Madam, I'm so excited about the warehouse manager opportunity Summit Search SummitSearch Group. And it Summit Search with SummitSearch Group, it's with a client of ours and I'm polite, I'll respond and say listen, it's not with us, we're a recruitment agency.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, it's with Summit Haircare or Hair in the hair industry. Yeah, exactly, oh boy.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, I think, as the employer, when you get that, that should be one of the things that you're really looking at on the resume, not just their experience, but, like you say, that shows that they're really interested because they took the time to look at your company. They took the time to look at the job and say, hey, I would be good at this job because of these things. And I also really like when you said to kind of own up to the things that you didn't really hit on there Because, yeah, maybe I don't have as much experience as you're looking for, but I have this, this and this which could go along with it, you know, or whatever it happens to be as the employer, that would really stand out to me.
Jessica Willis :Another thing that I would suggest, now that we're talking about it, is especially in the tech world, where there is a lot of terms and contract positions. Yeah, when someone on their resume has that they worked at this tech company as a software developer, if it was a term or a contract, put that in brackets. Yeah, because otherwise it might just look like you're hopping around. Yeah, someone like me would ask so what happened here? What spurred all these changes? And the answer would be oh, they were all contract. Great, write it in there, because, again, a hiring manager isn't going to go through the length to contact someone to ask why there's a lot of movement in their resume. They'll just assume that there's not a lot of longevity there and they move on.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and is that a red flag for you? If you're an employer looking and you see someone every year, every other year, has a new job, is that something that should concern you?
Jessica Willis :It depends on the resume, it depends on the industry, so I have worked with clients that aren't really as concerned about longevity. I think an ideal time frame, if on average, would be two to five years. If you were with a company for one year but then with the next company for five years, that's totally fine.
Jessica Willis :I'm just saying, if you're with a company for a year and it's not a contract or a term, someone like myself again would ask so what was missing? Because that could just be someone trying to figure out where they fit and just who hasn't had an opportunity to use their skill sets. And that's when my role as a marketer of this profile comes in, because I can explain that to my clients. But I would say the number one red flag for many resumes that I send in that maybe have a little bit of movement is the fact that they've moved around too much and they're just not comfortable with that.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, and I get it because when you take the time and money really to, you're investing in someone. When you hire them, so you take that time, you bring them on, you train them and you get them to the spot where this person is rolling, this is great. And then they quit and there's nothing worse than that because you've just you did the job you were supposed to do to have someone in that spot and now you have to do it again. Right, and I think that for me anyways, if I saw they worked at four different clothing stores in one year time and like, can they not get along with people? Do they not listen to instruction or what's the problem? And maybe that's just a bias that I had, but it would make it so that I didn't interview that person.
Jessica Willis :And I think it's definitely changing in terms of average time, like I would say, five years ago, 10 years was a great time to be the company.
Jessica Willis :Now I think if you've been with a company for 20 years in the same job, that could also be seen as a negative too, because if someone, if an employer, wants to hire someone that wants to grow and develop, maybe you do, but if you've had the same job, it just shows that you haven't taken the initiative to do that. I say that everyone has a different circumstance. But, on the flip side, if you've worked with a company and you've had seven jobs in your time there and each one shows your evolution, I think that's great and it just shows that you're constantly picking up new skills. Or maybe there's a pivot, maybe you went from sales to marketing or marketing to sales or to a leadership role or to a specialist role. It just shows that you're collecting a new set of skills and learning a little bit more on, really, where you can kind of give your stamp of value.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, for sure, and we, when we were talking before, this also question came up and I hadn't really thought about it much. But you said now that you get I guess you always have but the top questions that you get about opportunities where you know we often think it's compensation, but it's not always just compensation. So, as an employer, what are some questions I guess you should be aware about when you're looking to hire someone? On that you need to be prepared to answer.
Jessica Willis :Absolutely, and you know, as I said to you, Mackenzie, this is changing too. So five years ago it was all about compensation. Then, throughout the pandemic, it was about work environment, which is still really quite important. But you'd be surprised that remote or hybrid isn't always the most important thing to people. And now we've really pivoted to amount of time, to maybe unplug and have some of that personal time. So in the last six months I've had more offers, you know, kind of in limbo because of the vacation component, and many employers are offering more money in lieu of that. But that's not the number one driver. Many candidates in fact like if I could just get that extra week, I could actually take a little less money because that time is more important to me.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, that's such a great point because I mean even me as an employer.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I thought compensation benefit, you know you think of those certain things, but if that's not what's important to someone, it's not going to make them want to work for you more, right, like no, that's such a great point, so thank you for that. See, this is where all this visiting before we start recording just really comes in handy. We learned so much more that we didn't even think about. Jess, do you have a most important lesson that you can share when you're looking for someone for a spot in your company?
Jessica Willis :Yes, fire fast, fire slow.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:I agree with that 100%, and it's okay to get rid of people, isn't it?
Jessica Willis :And it's so heartbreaking and I really empathize with some clients of mine that are just really torn up because this is an employee that's been with their organization for a long time and there's been so many instances where they're like I just can't do it and then six months later they call me and they will say it has just gotten so much worse. We've had two other people leave now. So I always say you want to have the right people on the bus.
Jessica Willis :And if someone isn't good on the bus and they're making everybody else upset on the bus or they're just not allowing the bus to move forward. It's devastating for people to be let go, but it's also a really great reminder that not everything has to be permanent and they will find something else and in the most ideal sense it might be something that's a better fit for them. And then, on the flip side of that, sometimes I think you know, someone gets a resume. They're like I'll just have a quick call with them and then hire them, and then six weeks later they might, you know, discover that this person just didn't really feel like coming into work a lot of the time and that was a requirement, right, yeah, you should come to work.
Jessica Willis :I say definitely have more than one interview. If you're looking at a candidate, ideally have one more formal, one informal. And if you've really exhausted your options with a current employee and it just doesn't feel right, do them the favor and let them go, because outside of providing them some financial support for their life, there's no other favors.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:If you're not being honest, you know, I always ask people if there is something they wish they had known or wish they had known sooner or could tell the younger self. And just exactly what you talked about was something that I wish that I had known years ago when I had my business. Because you're right, someone, that's not a good fit. It causes other people to leave or it causes tension or stress in your business which affects everything else, and it's kind of that. When you said, well, it's hard, so people don't like doing it. Letting someone go is hard, but guess what? That it's done, your problem's gone, right.
Jessica Willis :And honestly it's the same when someone's going to quit. A part of my process is really supporting candidates when they're quitting their current role and helping them through that, because I think the lead up is the worst part and once they do it and they've disappointed someone, it's over. You know there's nothing, nothing else that can be done, and there's a very tasteful way to resign from a company and if a hiring manager or if a manager doesn't handle it well, it's also a really good indicator on, you know, just, leadership style as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Yeah, for sure, Jess. Thank you so much for being on this. Thank you for having me, I've had so much fun.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Me too, and this is stuff that we don't really talk about a lot in business. When I had my store, I would talk to other friends in my network that had businesses and you know you ask them questions about this or you maybe hate to say it, but complain about an employee and what do I do? Do I let them go? Oh, I'm going to hire this person. Have you heard the? You know you ask a lot of your friends, but I don't think we talk about this stuff as much as we should, and really it's essential for your success. So thank you for being here and sharing your expertise with us. Where can people find you.
Jessica Willis :So LinkedIn is really where I live and breathe. I'm always excited to meet new people, so if you'd like to connect with me there, it's Jessica Willis, if you just search for it and again with Summit Search Group, or you can find me on our website, summitsearchgroup. com. summitsearchgroupcom, and then, if you go to team, you can find me and get my email there, and then I also have a website w. willis. jessica. essica willisca Jessica Willisca.
Mackenzie Kilshaw:Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being on. I have some nuggets here. I'm not looking for any staff right now, but you never know what's going to happen. But thank you so much for being on and everyone that's listening. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you on the next episode. Thanks for listening to Winning. Be sure to subscribe to get all of our new episodes. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to Winning. To catch all of the latest from us, you can follow Winning Podcast on Instagram at @winning podcast, facebook at Facebook Winning podcast and Podcast on Twitter at Winning a pod inning Winning was created and is produced by me, mackenzie Kilshaw Mackenzie Music, created by Summer Furby, Firby by Seth Armstrong. Special thanks to Shauna Foster for voicing our opening and, of course, a huge thank you to this episode's guest. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.